MiG-29 vs. F-18

**Jimmy** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:20

Originally Posted by Rusky

I don't? Haha, you're got it all wrong, its the other way, you don't.

I know very well what I'm talking about, thanks.

Originally Posted by Rusky

Raptors top speed is around Mach 1.7-.9 its not outrunning anything. Outmaneuver would be the term you're looking for, but if it tricks the first one it will slow down sharply and will not be able to do anything about the second one.

No, outrun is exactly what I mean. You dont have to go Mach 5 to beat a Mach 4 missile at 35 miles. All you have to do is stay ahead of it until it runs out of fuel.

Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid

Uh your pretty misinformed. India expressed interest in the AESA radar from America. Also how can they say that the Su-30MKI has a more advanced radar than the F-15C when they weren't equipped with their AESA?

Trust me, a Su-30 can't compete with an AWACS. And actually I do believe they did have specialized AWACS.

The USAF did not have the upgraded Eagle radars, or AWACS support. Or top-end pilots...the guys flying were the ones on the normal flying schedule for those days. Vs good pilots from India.

Originally Posted by Captain Drunk

The Mig-29 has radar / avionics to destroy targets exceeding ranges of 200 Km, apart from that, it has far greater speed, better BVR missiles. The Hornet can't beat the Fulcrum. Period.

Ok, you keep saying that. What BVR missiles are you comparing? The ADDER? Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Ha. Those numbers you keep quoting come from a sales brochure. You'll never hit a maneuvering fighter-sized target at 100km+ with that POS. Yeah, I said it.

Originally Posted by Bluesman

'Fifty years of shooting down MiGs, but it'll all be different NEXT time, just you WAIT.'

Whatever.

See you in the ring, tough guy.

This is my favorite statement in the entire thread.

**highsea** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:22

Originally Posted by Rusky

...Oh you think that F-18 is a stealth aircraft? Wake up.

I posted DBSM values for most current fighter AC in a previous thread. Why don't you go back through the threads and see what has already been posted. Take a couple weeks, we could all use the break.

**Rusky** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:24

Originally Posted by Jimmy

I know very well what I'm talking about, thanks.

Doesn't seem that way.

No, outrun is exactly what I mean. You dont have to go Mach 5 to beat a Mach 4 missile at 35 miles. All you have to do is stay ahead of it until it runs out of fuel.

Yeah, right, but how will an aircraft with a max speed of mach 1.9 stay ahead of a missile traveling at mach 4.5

The USAF did not have the upgraded Eagle radars, or AWACS support. Or top-end pilots...the guys flying were the ones on the normal flying schedule for those days. Vs good pilots from India.

Anything but yellow press supporting that?

Ok, you keep saying that. What BVR missiles are you comparing? The ADDER? Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Ha. Those numbers you keep quoting come from a sales brochure. You'll never hit a maneuvering fighter-sized target at 100km+ with that POS. Yeah, I said it.

I agree, but the thing is an american missile can't do this either and at 100 km Mig-29 can lock on to the F-18 and fire the missile, so how does the AESA give F-18 an advantage in this case?

This is my favorite statement in the entire thread.

Yet, still irrelivant to the discussion and completely ridiculus.

**The_Burning_Kid** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:24

Originally Posted by Rusky

Of course, but thats the thing about homing missiles, you don't have to have a lock, all you need to do is send that missile flying in the general direction of the target and once its within range the missile's own radar will detect it and lock-on. Also F-18 is not a stealth aircraft detecting it should not be a problem.

See that is the problem, there is a difference between detecting and tracking. For one thing, detecting can be done by any radar, but to track an aircraft you need an advanced radar (the F/A-18E/F is more advanced for the record). I'll just use the stats you gave:

The AA-12 can make a lock on the F/A-18E/F from 20 kms and can be fired from 200 kms but that doesn't matter if the pilot doesn't know what he's tracking. You see the MiG-29's radar's range is around 80 kms while the F/A-18E/F's is around 200 km. The MiG-29 would have to get within 80 kms just to detect the F/A-18E/F before firing its AA-12 Archer. But here's what, the F/A-18E/F will have detected it from 200 kms away. Now all it has to do is get within 120 kms of the MiG-29 so it can fire its AIM-120D at the MiG-29. Note even at this distance, the MiG-29 would still not be able to detect the F/A-18E/F so it won't be able to fire a missile yet. It will take the AIM-120D flying at Mach 4, 63 seconds to hit the MiG-29. In 63 seconds, the MiG-29 flying at top speed of Mach 2 will be 83 kms away from F/A-18E/F or still not in range of its radar. In the end, the MiG-29 will be hit before it realises anything and the F/A-18E/F will be in safe distance away. Morale of the story: the F/A-18E/F wins.

**Rusky** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:26

Originally Posted by highsea

I posted DBSM values for most current fighter AC in a previous thread. Why don't you go back through the threads and see what has already been posted. Take a couple weeks, we could all use the break.

If you have them, repost them. So you going to have me believe that F-18 is a stealth aircraft? Really? Is that what you claim?

**The_Burning_Kid** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:29

Originally Posted by Rusky

If you have them, repost them. So you going to have me believe that F-18 is a stealth aircraft? Really? Is that what you claim?

Actually, the F/A-18E/F has a smaller RCS than the origional Hornet because of some stealthy features that were added and some RAM paint in certain areas. Though still not actually a stealth aircraft, it is by far more stealthy than any Russian aircraft.

**Rusky** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:32

Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid

See that is the problem, there is a difference between detecting and tracking. For one thing, detecting can be done by any radar, but to track an aircraft you need an advanced radar (the F/A-18E/F is more advanced for the record). I'll just use the stats you gave:

The AA-12 can make a lock on the F/A-18E/F from 20 kms and can be fired from 200 kms but that doesn't matter if the pilot doesn't know what he's tracking. You see the MiG-29's radar's range is around 80 kms while the F/A-18E/F's is around 200 km. The MiG-29 would have to get within 80 kms just to detect the F/A-18E/F before firing its AA-12 Archer. But here's what, the F/A-18E/F will have detected it from 200 kms away. Now all it has to do is get within 120 kms of the MiG-29 so it can fire its AIM-120D at the MiG-29. Note even at this distance, the MiG-29 would still not be able to detect the F/A-18E/F so it won't be able to fire a missile yet. It will take the AIM-120D flying at Mach 4, 63 seconds to hit the MiG-29. In 63 seconds, the MiG-29 flying at top speed of Mach 2 will be 83 kms away from F/A-18E/F or still not in range of its radar. In the end, the MiG-29 will be hit before it realises anything and the F/A-18E/F will be in safe distance away. Morale of the story: the F/A-18E/F wins.

Actually the Mig's radar engagement range is a bit over a 100 km. Also in modern combat i do not see a reason why the Mig would be flying alone for no reason, i mean if nobody knows that there is an F-18 nearby why would they send a mig in the area in the first place? The F-18 would be picked up by ground radar and AWACs, Mig would know where it is before hand and firing a missile should not be a problem.

This is the thing every time Americans fought Migs their opponents did not have AWACs or ground radars helping them, were not organized the way modern air war doctrine dictates and were flown by pilots who should never been allowed a 100 meters near a plane.

**Rusky** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:34

Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid

Actually, the F/A-18E/F has a smaller RCS than the origional Hornet because of some stealthy features that were added and some RAM paint in certain areas. Though still not actually a stealth aircraft, it is by far more stealthy than any Russian aircraft.

Thats true. Any american aircraft period is stealthier then any Russian aircraft to date (PAK-FA might be different but we don't know yet), but why does it matter? Its stealthy features will not make it invisible and if Russian anti-stealth ground radar can allow a lock on the F-117 STEALTH aircraft i don't see why the same radar won't be able to lock on to allow the Mig to lock on to F-18.

**The_Burning_Kid** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:39

Originally Posted by Rusky

Actually the Mig's radar engagement range is a bit over a 100 km. Also in modern combat i do not see a reason why the Mig would be flying alone for no reason, i mean if nobody knows that there is an F-18 nearby why would they send a mig in the area in the first place? The F-18 would be picked up by ground radar and AWACs, Mig would know where it is before hand and firing a missile should not be a problem.

This is the thing every time Americans fought Migs their opponents did not have AWACs or ground radars helping them, were not organized the way modern air war doctrine dictates and were flown by pilots who should never been allowed a 100 meters near a plane.

Still little effect on the overall scenario. And this is a debate comparing the two 1 vs 1. If the MiG-29 is so great, than it should be able to fight 1 vs 1. And I'm not including any external help. This is all alone for each other.

**The_Burning_Kid** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:41

Originally Posted by Rusky

Thats true. Any american aircraft period is stealthier then any Russian aircraft to date (PAK-FA might be different but we don't know yet), but why does it matter? Its stealthy features will not make it invisible and if Russian anti-stealth ground radar can allow a lock on the F-117 STEALTH aircraft i don't see why the same radar won't be able to lock on to allow the Mig to lock on to F-18.

The PAK-FA is not going to be as stealthy as the F-22 I can tell you for sure, considering Russia hasn't even developed a 1st generation stealth aircraft. As for the rest, look in the other thread.

**Rusky** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:42

Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid

Still little effect on the overall scenario. And this is a debate comparing the two 1 vs 1. If the MiG-29 is so great, than it should be able to fight 1 vs 1. And I'm not including any external help. This is all alone for each other.

Well okay then. The thing is that as was already pointed out by one of the supporters of your side of the argument chances of a missile succesfully hitting a maneuvering target that is more then 100+ km away is slim. If you take that into account Mig-29E that can lock on at 100 km is just as good as F-18 that can lock on at 200? 120?

**Rusky** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:45

Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid

The PAK-FA is not going to be as stealthy as the F-22 I can tell you for sure, considering Russia hasn't even developed a 1st generation stealth aircraft. As for the rest, look in the other thread.

You can't tell anything for sure right now until we see the results. Stealth technology is no big secret i mean look, your friend Defcon posted its principles in detail, so if he can get it from the internet you are saying that Russia can't? Also as i already said repeatedly we are going a differnet route about stealth, not the cloud but a less effective yet still effective and functioning plasma stealth system will be featured on PAK-FA according to all the latest info.

**The_Burning_Kid** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:49

Originally Posted by Rusky

Well okay then. The thing is that as was already pointed out by one of the supporters of your side of the argument chances of a missile succesfully hitting a maneuvering target that is more then 100+ km away is slim. If you take that into account Mig-29E that can lock on at 100 km is just as good as F-18 that can lock on at 200? 120?

What make's you think that anyone would only fire one missile? Also the AIM-120 is known for its great accuracy because of its own-board tracking and guidance systems. It wouldn't be a stretch for it to hit that far. Also outmanuevering a missile is pretty hard since the AIM-120 can pull over 22gs.

**The_Burning_Kid** · 20 Jan 06,, 21:51

Originally Posted by Rusky

You can't tell anything for sure right now until we see the results. Stealth technology is no big secret i mean look, your friend Defcon posted its principles in detail, so if he can get it from the internet you are saying that Russia can't? Also as i already said repeatedly we are going a differnet route about stealth, not the cloud but a less effective yet still effective and functioning plasma stealth system will be featured on PAK-FA according to all the latest info.

See that's whats the problem. All that info that has been leaked into the internet is the tip of the iceberg. Do you honestly believe that the US would tell all or even most of its stealth secrets? Unlikely considering the sensitivity of this field. As for plasma stealth, I have my doubts on it (which I've voiced) and doubt it will featured on the PAK-FA of it in anyway. But we will have to see about it in a couple of years.

**Rusky** · 20 Jan 06,, 22:13

Originally Posted by The_Burning_Kid

What make's you think that anyone would only fire one missile? Also the AIM-120 is known for its great accuracy because of its own-board tracking and guidance systems. It wouldn't be a stretch for it to hit that far. Also outmanuevering a missile is pretty hard since the AIM-120 can pull over 22gs.

Either way, even with 120 km range for AIM-120 the mig will be within range to fire its missiles before the 120s reach it.