Su-27 or F-15?

**GGTharos** · 17 Dec 06,, 04:15

Not 'ever since', but despite.

The Blackhawks were not identified or were not seen by the AWACS operators, I don't recall - and the operators didn't know about the flight plan, the helo itself is likely -not- in the NCTR database, and to top it all off, the pilots VID'ed them as Mi-24's!

**Jimmy** · 17 Dec 06,, 05:24

Originally Posted by GGTharos

Not 'ever since', but despite.

The Blackhawks were not identified or were not seen by the AWACS operators, I don't recall - and the operators didn't know about the flight plan, the helo itself is likely -not- in the NCTR database, and to top it all off, the pilots VID'ed them as Mi-24's!

That's not what I was getting at.

My point is that the ROE is a lot stricter. There are more links in the chain now, BECAUSE of that incident. It literally re-wrote the books on weapons employment. Basically, it was too easy to engage something...now its more difficult. I wasnt saying that NCTR in particular isnt enough, but there's no "one-thing" that'll get someone declared a hostile unless they lock our guys up. The right of self defense is never denied.

The Blackhawks WERE identified, but probably not via NCTR. AWACS played a big hand in dropping the ball, because there were indications that there might be friendlies in the area. People werent sharing information, and things that needed to go out over the radios never did. Rule #1 now is "No secrets." The rule of thumb is that if you know something, you tell 2 other people. And they did get intermittent contacts in the area, that's how the F-15s found out about it. Personally, I fault the Army primarily, for a few reasons. But the Air Force definitely owns a big chunk of the blame too.

**omon** · 18 Dec 06,, 16:49

Originally Posted by GGTharos

Not 'ever since', but despite.

The Blackhawks were not identified or were not seen by the AWACS operators, I don't recall - and the operators didn't know about the flight plan, the helo itself is likely -not- in the NCTR database, and to top it all off, the pilots VID'ed them as Mi-24's!

Up untill now i thougt it was imposible to misidentify mi24. any angle you look at it it has nothing in common with blackhawk. unless you look at one from very far at night with night vision off.

**GGTharos** · 18 Dec 06,, 18:38

Ahh, i see what you're getting at Jimmy. :D

Omon, not only were they misidentified, they were misidentified by lead -and- wingman. Thing is, when you're zipping by 2km away, and there's shadows, and who know what else ... you could really see anything you wanted to see.

**omon** · 18 Dec 06,, 20:07

Originally Posted by GGTharos

Ahh, i see what you're getting at Jimmy. :D

Omon, not only were they misidentified, they were misidentified by lead -and- wingman. Thing is, when you're zipping by 2km away, and there's shadows, and who know what else ... you could really see anything you wanted to see.

i belive you. that might explain a lot of ufo sightings

**BMF12** · 18 Dec 06,, 21:45

Originally Posted by canoe

Ok I'm going to assume your referring to the version of the Su-27 thats in Russian service and not anyone elses. And excluding piloting training and just looking at the aircraft.

I'm going mostly off the posted stats of both aircraft for their performance specs.

Absolute Maximum Range:
F15: 3,450 miles, Su27: 2485.48 miles
Advantage F15

Maximum Speed:
F15: Mach 2.5 , Su27: Mach 2.35
Advantage F15

Radar:
F15: AN/APG-70 X-band pulsed-Doppler radar
Su27: Flash Dance radar
Advantage F15

Weapon Hardpoints:
F15: 7, Su27: 10
Advantage Su27

Other things to note the Su-27 would appear to have a better thrust to weight ratio and is more maneuverable and the F-15 has a much better jamming/electronic countermeasure suit. Overall if it were my butt on the line I'd take the F-15, its got a much better radar/electronic warfare suit. If the Su-27 was updated with western or european avionics and weapons that would change however.

In summery my opinion is the Su-27 has better flight performance but the F-15 is a more effective killing machine because of its radar/jammers/countermeasures/warning radars/fiber towed decoy/etc.

My thoughts exactly.......the Su-27 COULD be better.....if it were smarter. However, it's a better plane

**omon** · 19 Dec 06,, 19:43

su 27 testplane.testing tvc

**Jimmy** · 20 Dec 06,, 00:15

Good lord, how much weight did THAT add?

**GGTharos** · 20 Dec 06,, 01:29

As much as F-15 ACTIVE mod :D

**Jimmy** · 20 Dec 06,, 04:42

I doubt that. That was an engine swap, not welding a huge extension to the airframe.

**Master Chief** · 20 Dec 06,, 21:26

Originally Posted by Jedi_Iatros

I'll concede that the Flanker is better aerodynamically, younger, faster, and armed very well....but the Eagle is 105 to zero in aerial combat!!! To me, records speak for themselves.

The Eagle, however, has better electronics (JHMCS, AESA, etc) and with it armed with AIM-120 and AIM-9X? I'll vote on the Eagle on this one.

Yes, AMEN and the Pilots

the Eagle is 105 to zero in aerial combat!!! And this is what matters, along with the best pilot.

**uss** · 13 Jan 07,, 22:01

Originally Posted by GGTharos

Actually the MKI isn't quite up and up with technology as the F-15 is.

All of that aircraft's systems are *export* systems built in most cases in foreign countries or under license, and at the very least the US is likely well aware of the Israeli jammer functionality, and other avionics - that right there makes the F-15's ECCM more effective.

The MKI's radar is still behind the F-15's, though not by much - but it'll be left in the dust when the APG63(v)3 upgrades are completed to the F-15 force.

Do -not- count the F-15 out ... it might not be the greatest WVR fighter but it still -is- and -will be- one of the greatest BVR fighters out there.

The Su-30MKI is something that is 'finally' catching up with the F-15 from that side ... it isn't superior

As of now, the AESA may give the Eagle an edge, however, sheer power on the Bars NO11m is scary. Enter the IRbis (circa 2010) and you have a detection ability of 400km for 3sqm fighters. The RCS reduction on the Su 30 is also quite incredible, extensive measures have brought down the flanker's RCS to 1-3 sqm as per russian sources. With the R77 ser. 180, you are looking at missiles that will have a range of 200km +.
Chances are in the near future, the MKI will get first look+shoot over the Eagle APG 63v3 notwithstanding.

JMT

Regards,
USS.

**uss** · 13 Jan 07,, 22:06

Originally Posted by Master Chief

Yes, AMEN and the Pilots

the Eagle is 105 to zero in aerial combat!!! And this is what matters, along with the best pilot.

MasterChief, those records in favor of the eagle are hardly justifiable. They come after having it out with a ragtag bunch of pilots from the middle east and halfway busted aircraft in case of the balkan states. I wonder if the record would have been as pretty if faced with the soviets in their heyday or any halfway decent airforce with good pilots and excellent aircraft maintenance.

I'm afraid the combat ability of the machine is hardly well judged in a completely one-sided scenario.

Regards,
USS.

**GGTharos** · 13 Jan 07,, 22:18

I think you're getting well ahead of yourself.
Fact is US electronics are still -far- ahead the Russian ones, despite their recent catch-up. Your comparison here is not very valid ... let's put it this way ... if one side turns the jammers on, BVR for the other side dissapears ... if both sides turn'em on, BVR for both sides dissapear -but- again, the US has an edge there, and right now they have the best radar guidance ever put into an air to air missile as well.

All of this tips the balance to the F-15's side, NOT the Su-27's family.

Originally Posted by uss

As of now, the AESA may give the Eagle an edge, however, sheer power on the Bars NO11m is scary. Enter the IRbis (circa 2010) and you have a detection ability of 400km for 3sqm fighters. The RCS reduction on the Su 30 is also quite incredible, extensive measures have brought down the flanker's RCS to 1-3 sqm as per russian sources. With the R77 ser. 180, you are looking at missiles that will have a range of 200km +.
Chances are in the near future, the MKI will get first look+shoot over the Eagle APG 63v3 notwithstanding.

JMT

Regards,
USS.

**GGTharos** · 13 Jan 07,, 22:19

How about the fact that the USAF operated MiG-29's, kept'em in good condition, and trained their pilots against'em? ...

Originally Posted by uss

MasterChief, those records in favor of the eagle are hardly justifiable. They come after having it out with a ragtag bunch of pilots from the middle east and halfway busted aircraft in case of the balkan states. I wonder if the record would have been as pretty if faced with the soviets in their heyday or any halfway decent airforce with good pilots and excellent aircraft maintenance.

I'm afraid the combat ability of the machine is hardly well judged in a completely one-sided scenario.

Regards,
USS.

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