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if one takes su27 airframe, engines, and f15 avionics, weapons, this will make a better plane than any of those two.
Su-27 Flanker
F-15 Eagle
some other air superiority fighter
Ritual suicide in Shintoism WTF!!!!!!!!^^^^
if one takes su27 airframe, engines, and f15 avionics, weapons, this will make a better plane than any of those two.
Actually there were no exerceises... there were just visits from Russian Air Force to US base and opposite in mid 1990-es.Originally Posted by highsea
One of the Russian piliots actually went on simulating the WVR combat and immagined a lot on the basis of that..... he tried on both Su-27 and F-15 and then came back and gave a lot of his impressions.
I remember was impressed about that couple of years ago until recently one pilot explained to me that it is actually NOTHING.... and both sides had their radars off for all the time. There were no excersises... but some joint flights on two air bases (US and Russian).
However until now there are very few pilots who flew both Flanker and Eagle...
Except for the F22..the Su30MKI kicks a$$ all other F series production planes,
but if the vanilla Su27 is considered then F15 is much better.
Actually the MKI isn't quite up and up with technology as the F-15 is.
All of that aircraft's systems are *export* systems built in most cases in foreign countries or under license, and at the very least the US is likely well aware of the Israeli jammer functionality, and other avionics - that right there makes the F-15's ECCM more effective.
The MKI's radar is still behind the F-15's, though not by much - but it'll be left in the dust when the APG63(v)3 upgrades are completed to the F-15 force.
Do -not- count the F-15 out ... it might not be the greatest WVR fighter but it still -is- and -will be- one of the greatest BVR fighters out there.
The Su-30MKI is something that is 'finally' catching up with the F-15 from that side ... it isn't superior
True enough, but... VID ROE's will negate that pretty quick. These next gen AESA sets will give you not only type (via NCTR range profiling), but loadout. All from well beyond BVR. Do the the ROE's acknowledge that?
I'd say it is accurate that we are aware of Israeli ECM/ECCM functionality, all things considered.
I really like the Flanker series- India did the right thing by trying to westernize it, given the alternative. And I don't know what all Russia is holding back. Experience says there's a little anyway, maybe a little more.
Omon had it almost right when he saidI'll go along with all that except for the engines. The GE's and Pratt's win that fight."if one takes su27 airframe, engines, and f15 avionics, weapons, this will make a better plane than any of those two."
Omon- The Flanker wins the airframe competition, but only against type. Raptor still takes it to a new level. How many years will we wait before Sukhoi offers up a frame in class that can supercruise at 60,000ft+ with the full spectrum of advanced avionics and weapons?
We won't surrender wihout a fight.
"We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008
Depends on the ROE's, but the F-15 has had NCTR for a -very- long time now ... you don't need AESA for it. It was specifically made to deal with BVR ... and ROEs would undoubtedly take this into account. IIRC the F-15 was one of the few aircraft authorized to do BVR on its own so far, though usually as a safeguard AWACS would be involved.
They are capable of holding back quite a bit ... for example, the Su-27SK doesn't have a fully featured datalink, rumor has it ... and MiG-29A exports had missing war reserve radar modes, as did MiG-23's.I'd say it is accurate that we are aware of Israeli ECM/ECCM functionality, all things considered.
I really like the Flanker series- India did the right thing by trying to westernize it, given the alternative. And I don't know what all Russia is holding back. Experience says there's a little anyway, maybe a little more.
And let me point out that the F-15C /will/ out-turn a flanker in a high-speed, high-energy fight. It's when things get low and slow that the flanker has advantage (in sustained turns at least, it always has an instantaneous turn advantage)Omon had it almost right when he said I'll go along with all that except for the engines. The GE's and Pratt's win that fight.
Omon- The Flanker wins the airframe competition, but only against type. Raptor still takes it to a new level. How many years will we wait before Sukhoi offers up a frame in class that can supercruise at 60,000ft+ with the full spectrum of advanced avionics and weapons?
We won't surrender wihout a fight.
As I understand it. the NCTR you refer to was based on fan blade counting, and never relied on (without AWACS support-this gen might change that). I could be wrong.
GG, I had that point in my response, but my several thumbs caused it to be deleted. Yep, the Eagle edges out Flanker at supersonic maneuvering- but by a slim margin IIRC when compared to a straight up SU-27. Which means there is really no edge, it'll come down to tactics and supporting assets.
Omon- When you add the drag from canards, etc on MKI/SU-33, it adds on one side and takes away on another. That just emphasizes how the MKI is a purpose-built flavor. If we look at Eagles, Light Grays aren't Dark Grays. For a reason, MKI's are tailored to a threat, just like every other AC.
F-15 in battle speaks for itself. No arguments there. But Flanker, it's the real thing. It just has some really tough competition, that's all.
Hey, in Ethiopia vs. Eritrea, Flankers smoked Fulcrums...Twice, I think...
"We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008
Hi Highsea, do you read anything which you can advise on this topic? I heard so much but nothing credible... in Russian forums I heard that Flankers did not achieve in BVR as most of the missiles fired were avoided.... however in WVR Flankers somehow outperformed a more light Fulcrums. I also heard that both sides were piloted by ex-USSR pilots.... Many rumors but little information!!!Hey, in Ethiopia vs. Eritrea, Flankers smoked Fulcrums...Twice, I think...
considering that su weighs a little more and little bigger, it's not that clear who has the edge, gm and prat wit. engines are indeed great engines, don't know for sure ,but i'd say they get more fuel milage,but they werent built for su.who knows how they'll perform in donor body.I'd stick with something that works.it's not that bad aftert all.Omon had it almost right when he said I'll go along with all that except for the engines. The GE's and Pratt's win that fight.
Omon- The Flanker wins the airframe competition, but only against type. Raptor still takes it to a new level. How many years will we wait before Sukhoi offers up a frame in class that can supercruise at 60,000ft+ with the full spectrum of advanced avionics and weapons?
We won't surrender wihout a fight.
as for compearing su to f22. F-22 is the best plane in the world for now, it beats every plane, even on paper.i wouldn't compare it with anything. yet.
you absolutely right we won't surrender wihout a fight. i honestly don,t think russians would want to win wihout a fight,it takes away joy of victory, as long as the fight is on we keep making great planes.everyone needs competition to be at it's best.
http://www.xp-office.de/Su_30mmk_technical.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm
Last edited by omon; 14 Dec 06, at 22:25.
It is just one feature of NCTR, there are more aspects to examining the radar reflection. There are several papers on the matter, but I'm not sure how accessible they are at this point.
No, I'm talking about the 380-420KIAS area ... The F-15 turns better when it comes to a sustained turn there, and likely holds its speed better - if the pilot plays his cards right and doesn't slow down for the flanker, or get nailed by an R-73, it's pretty much murder for the flanker.GG, I had that point in my response, but my several thumbs caused it to be deleted. Yep, the Eagle edges out Flanker at supersonic maneuvering- but by a slim margin IIRC when compared to a straight up SU-27. Which means there is really no edge, it'll come down to tactics and supporting assets.
Naturally, that is a lot of 'IFs', but if your point was the winner will be the one to sucker the other into his domain, I concur
I saw someone somewhere say something about an 80km R-27RE shot ... let me correct that right away.
The Su-27Sk (which is what I believed was used there) has a problem with tracking targets in attack mode (hey call STT attack ) beyond some 60-70km, so there won't be any shooting beyond that range most likely, unelss we are dealing with a very large larget.
Secondly, the R-27R's max range is some 35km at 10000m with a 1000kt closure. I'll happily believe that the RE's rocket motor doubles this - but you can probably see right away how 80km shots are rather unlikely.
The MiG-29A has serious issues in tracking a target in attack mode - an aspect change can dump the lock. THAT is how bad that thing's radar is. The A mind you, the russian versions might fare better ...
So as you can see, with pilots knowing exactly how to beat the other craft (they had access to manuals etc, plus they are using the same weapons) allowed the flankers to claim a decisive victory by fighting their way in close with the help of their superior radar.
With all the pilots knowing the R-27's flaws and merits, it isn't surprising that BVR shots were easily dodged. It is likely they were taken at rather long ranges, making this dodging quite easy, too.
GG, I have read several papers on the subject, obviously not everything that has been written. But I know that not everything that can be accomplished on a test range can necessarily be accomplished in a fighter radar set.
Lol, I had a much more detailed reply written up, but after re-reading it, I think maybe it's best to leave it off here...
But I stand behind my previous comment, AFAIK the F-15 never fired a missile at BVR ranges based on NCTR alone- ROE's require some additional confirmation (and still do). NCTR based on AESA range profiling may relax that requirement. As I'm sure you know, we are still learning...
"We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008
The study was done using a weaker radar set - what was interesting to me personally in this study was the interpretation of the signal ... and let's just say that the fan blades were but a part of it. I wish I could point you tot he study but it's one of those you have to buy :(
Lol, I had a much more detailed reply written up, but after re-reading it, I think maybe it's best to leave it off here...
But I stand behind my previous comment, AFAIK the F-15 never fired a missile at BVR ranges based on NCTR alone- ROE's require some additional confirmation (and still do). NCTR based on AESA range profiling may relax that requirement. As I'm sure you know, we are still learning...
I agree, but I'll also point out the following: The F-15's NCTR fuction doesn't contain data for every fighter aircraft in the world - in fact it just contains data for some 14 aircraft, though that library may have been expanded last I heard.
An AESA radar will likely not be tremedously advantageous in providing -better- NCTR capability, but rather, it might provide you with the ability to NCTR multiple targets simulataneously - with a corresponding increase in processing requirement.
In addition, the ROE is the ROE: If you -can- have additional safeguards, why not use them? The NCTR is there for when you don't have that luxury and you need to do the ID BVR. But usually you will have advance intelligence of what's stationed where, and AWACS controllers who know all this info, at which point the NCTR becomes redundant to some degree. Basically the ROE's aren't really proof that NCTR doesn't work, or that it doesn't work 'well enough' ... it's like traffic rules:
You stop at a stop sign even though you can CLEARLY see all 4 ways of the intersection and that there's no cars on any of the roads within a mile. You still stop though, it's the rule.
Ever since F-15s shot down Blackhawks, its highly unlikely that any ONE item is going to be enough to declare a hostile. I've never seen a mission, even in training, where that's enough. The AFI standard has several steps, although every situation could be different.
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