Light Combat Aircraft(lCA) and Combat Aircraft Trainer(CAT)

**ajaybhutani** · 06 Sep 05, 16:21

Originally Posted by tphuang

after reading some of the posts on this thread. I have absolutely no idea why some of you seem to have so much hope on this plane. I have no clue how some of you would say LCA is better than J-10.

To be frank we dont even know much about either of the planes to make this statement. Unless the information comes out neither can we say LCA is better in this regard or J10 is better in this regard.

Clearly, su-30mki is your main air combat fighter for the forseeable future. Whereas LCA seems to be more of an interceptor.

Its just to fill up the numbers. point interceptor.

Also, I thought IAF only put down an order of 20 LCAs. Interesting. I guess the order of 40 would make this project at least worth while. I still see it more as a save face kind of move though. Let's put it this way:

) .. 20 is the current order with option of 20 more. And thats for the first batch and not the total order.( these are the ones that will contain the GE404 engine) and the plan if for 200 LCAs.

IAF is getting 180 su-30mki by 2015
IAF is getting 126 other fighters for this new contract they are about to sign.
Where does that leave LCA?
I personally think it looks pretty grim for LCA.

Lets see we have to phase out 200+ Mig21's hundred odd mig23s. clearly 125 MRCA donot change the need for LCA.

Just as a comparison, China is getting at least 300 J-10A/B and probably more once later variants come out.

indian plan is 200 but its all dependent on the success of aircraft . and add to it the 125 MRCA.

Before getting patriotic, just look at the fact.

please first apply that on you. ??

And also, Zhuk-M radar isn't that good. If you guys can get bar, it would be good.

I did a little check on Zhuk-M:
General data of Zhuk-M
Frequency range: 8-12.5 GHz
Detection range: 120 km (forward hemisphere, 5 m² RCS target)
Targets: up to 4 (tracked); 10 (detected)
Angular coverage: -40º/+55º (elevation); ± 85º (azimuth)
Weight: 180 kg

For what. airframe (RCS)??
Also what are u comparing it to. Whats the radar in J10 ?? whats the range ??
Zhuk can be fitted into LCA with ease. So lest compare the radar ranges and also the RCS. ?? do u have this information ??

That's not very impressive at all.

) .. well ur knowledge isnt complete.

**ajaybhutani** · 06 Sep 05, 16:26

Originally Posted by tphuang

i thought those engines were for the combat trainer.

Either way, the problem with getting foreign radar for domestic plane is that foregin companies don't want to sell advanced radar, because they want you to buy their planes (especially in Russians' case).

U are missing a small point. If we want to fit in BARS29 / zhuk M on LCA we just need to buy the mig35 with the ToT. and of course russians will not care wether we make mig29s with these radars or LCA as they wont get more royality with more Mig35s.

Anyhow, I'd seriously like to see LCA actually achieve its spec of mach1.8 top speed and 9g and maximum payload before making further judgement.

Has the J10 met its target?? Please elaborate ?? also the same for how much has JF17 been tested??

**uss** · 06 Sep 05, 20:08

Originally Posted by indianguy4u

I havent spoken against zhuks. All i said is what we cannot develop in time should be procure b'coz it drags the project too long for comfort. Case in point engine & radar, which we could easily had procure long time back, but what happened. It will take some more time.
PS: If we procure foreign items it must not mean not to keep deveolping those(if with tot) or our indegenious products. But project should not be delayed for want of those.

Agreed. If the radar and engines are taking time, get outside stuff and make the baby fly...sooner or later they will be able to make the stuff in house. by the way, any news on the pv2?

USS.

**tphuang** · 07 Sep 05, 00:18

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

U are missing a small point. If we want to fit in BARS29 / zhuk M on LCA we just need to buy the mig35 with the ToT. and of course russians will not care wether we make mig29s with these radars or LCA as they wont get more royality with more Mig35s.

Has the J10 met its target?? Please elaborate ?? also the same for how much has JF17 been tested??

If you think you can obtain the best Russian radar on LCA, congradulations. Then LCA has really done well, but you will still need the long range AAMs to complement the radar, other wise, the range is wasted.

Just to compare the two category that was mentionned with J-10:

It's published that J-10's maximum speed is mach2.0 on most websites, but it has gone at least mach2.2+ during flights. This is because it broke the record in 2004 for the fastest speed of any plaaf jet. J-8II's max is mach2.2, so it's definitely more than that. su-27 has a maximum of mach2.35, but I doubt that has been achieved to that in China, so my personal guess is that J-10 has flown at mach2.2 or 2.3 in 2004 and maybe even faster later, but we don't know.

As for g, J-10's airframe can handle 13g, it has handled 12g in tests. However, the FBW restricts the plane to a maximum of 10g for obvious reasons.

**tphuang** · 07 Sep 05, 00:25

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

To be frank we dont even know much about either of the planes to make this statement. Unless the information comes out neither can we say LCA is better in this regard or J10 is better in this regard.

I do know that J-10 has destroyed both su-27 and su-30mkk in a2a combat. From that, it has become China's flag ship fighter.

) .. 20 is the current order with option of 20 more. And thats for the first batch and not the total order.( these are the ones that will contain the GE404 engine) and the plan if for 200 LCAs.

Lets see we have to phase out 200+ Mig21's hundred odd mig23s. clearly 125 MRCA donot change the need for LCA.

interesting, I guess we will see if more LCAs are ordered then. I personally think that you are getting 300+ new planes (mki and mrca) to replace the old planes. I think they are world class and will serve much better than LCA.

please first apply that on you. ??

I was actually talking about the other people on this thread. You are quite reasonable. Actually, if you read my posts, you would notice that I don't have much hope for JF-17 and think that su-30mkks are a waste of money. The only plane that I have any hope for from the plaaf are the mk2s and j-10s.

For what. airframe (RCS)??
Also what are u comparing it to. Whats the radar in J10 ?? whats the range ??
Zhuk can be fitted into LCA with ease. So lest compare the radar ranges and also the RCS. ?? do u have this information ??

) .. well ur knowledge isnt complete.

From another thread that I posted:
the currently estimated spec on KLJ-3 (fitted on J-10) is:
160KM search range, 100KM for up range, 80KM for below range, 40KM for behind range (I'm doing my best to translate the chinese spec I'm seeing), can track 16-20 targets and engage 6-8 targets.

**generation_x** · 07 Sep 05, 06:16

The LCA was designed to be an intrecept aircraft and I do believe that it will do the job exceedingly well. From what I unerstand can carry a variety of different radars. But LCA is the world's smallest fighter jet and IMO in close combat size will be very vital.

**Jay** · 07 Sep 05, 08:09

From what I unerstand can carry a variety of different radars.

WTF???!!! You thinkl you can change radars on the fly??

IMO in close combat size will be very vital.

If only if it gets to see close combat.

Guys, being patriotic is one, but be realistic. Stop saying that its one of the best in the world, etc etc, its a maiden journey for India, and lets hope that it all goes well.

**ajaybhutani** · 07 Sep 05, 08:22

Originally Posted by tphuang

If you think you can obtain the best Russian radar on LCA, congradulations. Then LCA has really done well, but you will still need the long range AAMs to complement the radar, other wise, the range is wasted.

There is an individual development of Astra A2A in india apart from that u know well that we have R77 latest versions along with the joint development going on for the ultra long range missile with Russia. And at least all the good A2A's that india have will be integrated with LCA.( i see no reason not to do it and also no restriction too).

Just to compare the two category that was mentionned with J-10:

It's published that J-10's maximum speed is mach2.0 on most websites, but it has gone at least mach2.2+ during flights. This is because it broke the record in 2004 for the fastest speed of any plaaf jet. J-8II's max is mach2.2, so it's definitely more than that. su-27 has a maximum of mach2.35, but I doubt that has been achieved to that in China, so my personal guess is that J-10 has flown at mach2.2 or 2.3 in 2004 and maybe even faster later, but we don't know.

As for g, J-10's airframe can handle 13g, it has handled 12g in tests. However, the FBW restricts the plane to a maximum of 10g for obvious reasons.

some more clarifications will be good in this regard??
1.max speed without afterburners??
2. some more info on avionics. ??

**ajaybhutani** · 07 Sep 05, 08:42

Originally Posted by tphuang

I do know that J-10 has destroyed both su-27 and su-30mkk in a2a combat. From that, it has become China's flag ship fighter.

hmm thats quite interesting ... can u give me some good link on radar detection range of MKK..

interesting, I guess we will see if more LCAs are ordered then. I personally think that you are getting 300+ new planes (mki and mrca) to replace the old planes. I think they are world class and will serve much better than LCA.

its true they will but the requirement is much more than these numbers. MKI's are not meant for replacements at all. So that leaves only 125 new planes for replacement and more than 250 mig21's and 100 odd mig23's and some 100 mig27s to replace.
the number is quite large for india. theres no way we can do that without mass producing LCA .

I was actually talking about the other people on this thread. You are quite reasonable. Actually, if you read my posts, you would notice that I don't have much hope for JF-17 and think that su-30mkks are a waste of money. The only plane that I have any hope for from the plaaf are the mk2s and j-10s.

i apologise.

From another thread that I posted:
the currently estimated spec on KLJ-3 (fitted on J-10) is:
160KM search range, 100KM for up range, 80KM for below range, 40KM for behind range (I'm doing my best to translate the chinese spec I'm seeing), can track 16-20 targets and engage 6-8 targets.

Can u please give me some extra info on
is the 160 km search range for 5 msq target ??
Also is there some info on the RCS of J10(official or unofficial) like compared to su27 / F16 / less .. ???

Thanks

**ajaybhutani** · 07 Sep 05, 08:50

Originally Posted by generation_x

The LCA was designed to be an intrecept aircraft and I do believe that it will do the job exceedingly well. From what I unerstand can carry a variety of different radars. But LCA is the world's smallest fighter jet and IMO in close combat size will be very vital.

radars have diffrent weights dimesions etc making . and fitting a radar involves balacing all variables(like centre of mass) to ensure same aerodynamic properties. so each radar involves somework on the airframe . its not a plugin that u can remove/replace any day unless the two radars have same dimesions and weights. for instance the bars29 is expected to be 200 kg heavier than the zhuk M .u can urself see how difficult it is .

**indianguy4u** · 07 Sep 05, 13:10

Originally Posted by tphuang

i thought those engines were for the combat trainer.

I said its an eg to be followed for LCA & future projects in HAL, DRDO etc.

Those are for IJTs & CAT only(engines).

**indianguy4u** · 07 Sep 05, 13:15

Originally Posted by uss

Agreed. If the radar and engines are taking time, get outside stuff and make the baby fly...sooner or later they will be able to make the stuff in house. by the way, any news on the pv2?

USS.

When will babus of def ministry understand this ?

I am also waiting for that. It has being sometime. Dont know why its taking so long

.

**ajaybhutani** · 07 Sep 05, 14:17

Originally Posted by indianguy4u

When will babus of def ministry understand this ?

I am also waiting for that. It has being sometime. Dont know why its taking so long

.

be thankful that they are ready to put GE404 in the first 40 . to be frank. We dont even need the kaveri to be successful. if lca is good nough with ge404 as a platform as a whole it will be bought in numbers without LCA and preferably a better version of ge404 and it will be pretty easy to convince babus that its better to make an LCa than buy a mig35/F16 only invest in buying a GE404. or get a russian engine running in the machine. but rite now we cant say that because we have no proof that lca will be good nough and better than these machines india can buy as alternatives. so lets wait for the first production batch to come. Remember that we just invested in 50 MKI's. and only when we became sure that it is a real good fighter we invested in 140 more. its just the same principle. only engine will not stop LCA. but overall bad performance will.

**aaaditya** · 07 Sep 05, 14:30

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

be thankful that they are ready to put GE404 in the first 40 . to be frank. We dont even need the kaveri to be successful. if lca is good nough with ge404 as a platform as a whole it will be bought in numbers without LCA and preferably a better version of ge404 and it will be pretty easy to convince babus that its better to make an LCa than buy a mig35/F16 only invest in buying a GE404. or get a russian engine running in the machine. but rite now we cant say that because we have no proof that lca will be good nough and better than these machines india can buy as alternatives. so lets wait for the first production batch to come. Remember that we just invested in 50 MKI's. and only when we became sure that it is a real good fighter we invested in 140 more. its just the same principle. only engine will not stop LCA. but overall bad performance will.

a more advanced(higher thrust )version of ge-f-404 engine is on offer for lca,also the al-55 can be easily converted into an engine for combat aircrafts with the introduction of a reheat capability.

**indianguy4u** · 07 Sep 05, 14:34

link aaditya.

Thread: Light Combat Aircraft(lCA) and Combat Aircraft Trainer(CAT)

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