Light Combat Aircraft(lCA) and Combat Aircraft Trainer(CAT)

**uss** · 25 Aug 05, 03:08

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

i m sure that it will gobble mig35 in BVR. for it will have a much smaller RCS than Mig35/29.

among the salient features of the MiG 35 is a considerably reduced rcs - but LCA RCS should definitely be lower. If they both carry an equally powerful radar, I would bet on the LCA as well. The Bars 29 is pretty darned heavy, I wonder if the Lca can really carry it; perhaps it will be slightly modified? even the zhuk M will make the LCA one scary beast . .

Regards,
USS.

**ajaybhutani** · 25 Aug 05, 08:19

Originally Posted by uss

among the salient features of the MiG 35 is a considerably reduced rcs - but LCA RCS should definitely be lower. If they both carry an equally powerful radar, I would bet on the LCA as well. The Bars 29 is pretty darned heavy, I wonder if the Lca can really carry it; perhaps it will be slightly modified? even the zhuk M will make the LCA one scary beast . .

Regards,
USS.

what are the comparitive weights for Zhuk & Bars29 ??

**uss** · 27 Aug 05, 00:46

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

what are the comparitive weights for Zhuk & Bars29 ??

Bars = 250-300 kg (expected)
Zhuk M (as on Mig 29 M2) = 180kg

does anyone know how heavy the MMR is expected to be? It is supposed to have a larger diameter than the Zhuk M. But there is speculation that the new Kopyo F (phased array) may be used for the LCA.

Regards,
USS.

**uss** · 27 Aug 05, 01:17

Originally Posted by uss

Bars = 250-300 kg (expected)
Zhuk M (as on Mig 29 M2) = 180kg

does anyone know how heavy the MMR is expected to be? It is supposed to have a larger diameter than the Zhuk M. Then there is speculation that the new Kopyo F (phased array) may be used for the LCA.

Regards,
USS.

EDIT: I could be wrong here because while I have read that the diameter on the MMR is about 650mm, that on the zhuk M is 680mm (624 mm according some). Funny thing is all reports that i have read are conflicting - the bars29 is expected to have about 80 - 90% capabilities of the NO 11M (which by the way has a monster diameter of 1meter), this would make it superior to the Zhuk M, but its antenna diameter is supposedly smaller (~600mm) There is also an outside chance for the EL 2032 IMHO. Go figure

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 02 Sep 05, 01:40

Originally Posted by Proud Indian

About NEW LCA

Guys dont u just love
in pDF
i heard that LCA is "piece of crap" and "worst plane of all time"

Guys Lca is awesome and i rekon isone the best 4th-4.5th gen. plane

IT got every thin that gives it edge on F-16

wanna discuus

And Wat about HAL CAT(combat aircraft trainer)

Karan(invincible Game)

Yes, i agree, the LCA is simply the best 4th or 5th generation fighter around

. Trouble is it'll be out by 2015 at the earliest

**generation_x** · 02 Sep 05, 03:07

Whatever you guys might say LCA is a beautiful ac. In a dogfight it will bring down any ac no mater how good it is

**ajaybhutani** · 02 Sep 05, 06:11

Originally Posted by Hongkongfuey

Yes, i agree, the LCA is simply the best 4th or 5th generation fighter around

. Trouble is it'll be out by 2015 at the earliest

there will be at least 40 flying before the end of this decade in IAF.

**ajaybhutani** · 02 Sep 05, 06:20

Originally Posted by generation_x

Whatever you guys might say LCA is a beautiful ac. In a dogfight it will bring down any ac no mater how good it is

ufff... be a realist.

**generation_x** · 06 Sep 05, 06:12

Originally Posted by ajaybhutani

ufff... be a realist.

Why do think otherwise??

**tphuang** · 06 Sep 05, 06:54

after reading some of the posts on this thread. I have absolutely no idea why some of you seem to have so much hope on this plane. I have no clue how some of you would say LCA is better than J-10.

Clearly, su-30mki is your main air combat fighter for the forseeable future. Whereas LCA seems to be more of an interceptor.

Also, I thought IAF only put down an order of 20 LCAs. Interesting. I guess the order of 40 would make this project at least worth while. I still see it more as a save face kind of move though. Let's put it this way:
IAF is getting 180 su-30mki by 2015
IAF is getting 126 other fighters for this new contract they are about to sign.
Where does that leave LCA?
I personally think it looks pretty grim for LCA.

Just as a comparison, China is getting at least 300 J-10A/B and probably more once later variants come out.

Before getting patriotic, just look at the fact.

And also, Zhuk-M radar isn't that good. If you guys can get bar, it would be good.

I did a little check on Zhuk-M:
General data of Zhuk-M
Frequency range: 8-12.5 GHz
Detection range: 120 km (forward hemisphere, 5 m² RCS target)
Targets: up to 4 (tracked); 10 (detected)
Angular coverage: -40º/+55º (elevation); ± 85º (azimuth)
Weight: 180 kg

That's not very impressive at all.

**indianguy4u** · 06 Sep 05, 07:27

Originally Posted by tphuang

after reading some of the posts on this thread. I have absolutely no idea why some of you seem to have so much hope on this plane. I have no clue how some of you would say LCA is better than J-10.

Clearly, su-30mki is your main air combat fighter for the forseeable future. Whereas LCA seems to be more of an interceptor.

Also, I thought IAF only put down an order of 20 LCAs. Interesting. I guess the order of 40 would make this project at least worth while. I still see it more as a save face kind of move though. Let's put it this way:
IAF is getting 180 su-30mki by 2015
IAF is getting 126 other fighters for this new contract they are about to sign.
Where does that leave LCA?
I personally think it looks pretty grim for LCA.

Just as a comparison, China is getting at least 300 J-10A/B and probably more once later variants come out.

Before getting patriotic, just look at the fact.

And also, Zhuk-M radar isn't that good. If you guys can get bar, it would be good.

I did a little check on Zhuk-M:
General data of Zhuk-M
Frequency range: 8-12.5 GHz
Detection range: 120 km (forward hemisphere, 5 m² RCS target)
Targets: up to 4 (tracked); 10 (detected)
Angular coverage: -40º/+55º (elevation); ± 85º (azimuth)
Weight: 180 kg

That's not very impressive at all.

Thats the main problem along with a suitable engine. Both have be looked upon. On engine front there is need to source the engine from french or russian or others who have a suitable engine because our kaveri has run into trouble. About radar israel has shown interest in selling their radar. Since this is our first product from scratch i believe if we cant develope a product on time & quality wise its better to get JVs for the same & move on & learn.

PS: the recent 250 engine deal for IJT is the right way forward.

**uss** · 06 Sep 05, 07:47

Originally Posted by indianguy4u

Thats the main problem along with a suitable engine. Both have be looked upon. On engine front there is need to source the engine from french or russian or others who have a suitable engine because our kaveri has run into trouble. About radar israel has shown interest in selling their radar. Since this is our first product from scratch i believe if we cant develope a product on time & quality wise its better to get JVs for the same & move on & learn.

PS: the recent 250 engine deal for IJT is the right way forward.

IG4U,

the Zhuk M would not be a bad radar on something as small as the LCA, in fact it would make the LCA v.powerful indeed. The Zhuk-m's range are as good if not better than the RDY that the M2k-5 carries and definitely better than the Kopyo-m that the Bison Carries. even the IN MiG29k's have the Zhuk-M. for a tiny bird, the lca will pack a punch with the zhuk m.

In terms of the engines, the GE 404s should be good enough for now. Admittedly, the kaveri seems to be in a bit of a spot.

Regards,
USS.

**indianguy4u** · 06 Sep 05, 07:55

I havent spoken against zhuks. All i said is what we cannot develop in time should be procure b'coz it drags the project too long for comfort. Case in point engine & radar, which we could easily had procure long time back, but what happened. It will take some more time.
PS: If we procure foreign items it must not mean not to keep deveolping those(if with tot) or our indegenious products. But project should not be delayed for want of those.

**tphuang** · 06 Sep 05, 14:24

Originally Posted by indianguy4u

Thats the main problem along with a suitable engine. Both have be looked upon. On engine front there is need to source the engine from french or russian or others who have a suitable engine because our kaveri has run into trouble. About radar israel has shown interest in selling their radar. Since this is our first product from scratch i believe if we cant develope a product on time & quality wise its better to get JVs for the same & move on & learn.

PS: the recent 250 engine deal for IJT is the right way forward.

i thought those engines were for the combat trainer.

Either way, the problem with getting foreign radar for domestic plane is that foregin companies don't want to sell advanced radar, because they want you to buy their planes (especially in Russians' case).

Anyhow, I'd seriously like to see LCA actually achieve its spec of mach1.8 top speed and 9g and maximum payload before making further judgement.

**ajaybhutani** · 06 Sep 05, 15:16

Originally Posted by generation_x

Why do think otherwise??

u are expecting too much out of LCA in a dogfight with that statement of yours

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