F-14 vs. F/A-18E/F

troung · 10-13-2003, 17:43 PM

God this is a mostly American forum and I do not see people yelling at each other about the F-14 being replaced by the F/A-18E/F.

So what do you guys think about the F/A-18E/F replacing the F-14A/B/D as the USN air superiority fighter?

I guess I will play devils advotace............

troung · 10-13-2003, 17:45 PM

Super Hornet............

**TopHatter** · 10-13-2003, 17:52 PM

Well, speaking off the cuff, there is alot of things about the F-14 that the Super Hornet cannot even come close to replacing.
On the hand, the Tomcat is not getting any younger and the Navy needs planes now .
From what I've heard, pilots love flying the Hornet and the E/F variants apparently can do more than take off, circle the boat, and then have to refuel.
I've heard this and that, hemming and hawing about the Super Hornet but guess what? Perfect too late is the enemy of good enough right now.

bigross86 · 10-14-2003, 04:15 AM

I think the Pentagon caused a really FUBAR situation by not following the F-14D with the Tomcat 21.

**TopHatter** · 10-14-2003, 09:13 AM

Yeah, the wholesale cancellation/retirement of several aircraft types really screwed up naval aviation. I think the blame for that can be laid at the feet of the A-12 Avenger program. The cost-overruns and subsequent legal fallout of the cancellation of Avenger sucked money right out of so many programs, like the Tomcat and A-6 Intruder.

**Ironduke** · 10-14-2003, 11:12 AM

Does the F/A-18 E/F outperform the F-14 in any areas whatsoever? And if so, by how much? By alot? marginally?

**TopHatter** · 10-14-2003, 11:41 AM

Well, I've been looking through Global Security.org's information and it seems like the Tomcat is faster and has a higher ceiling, and can simultaneously target more aircraft than the Super Hornet.
I think where the Hornet shines is in it's advanced electronics, somewhat higher payload and ease of maintaining the beast. This counts for a lot, obviously.
The Hornet has gotten alot of flak since it first appeared in the early 80s and some it was justified. It's range bordered on disgraceful due to a monumental ****up in taking the YF-17 Cobra and turning it into the -18 Hornet.
But on the other hand, it's performed well in combat, many countries have bought it, and as I said before, the Tomcat is not getting any younger. It first deployed the year I was born (1975). This is very old technology and unfortunately you can't compare it the B-52, a land -based strategic bomber . Operating an aircraft at sea is rather brutal on said aircraft. The Tomcat has served well and will continue to serve for another 6-7 years, but it's time to retire. The Hornet, for whatever shortcomings she has, is here now, can do the job and that counts for more than an empty flight deck.

bigross86 · 10-14-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

The Hornet ... can do the job

I'm afraid way too many people would disagree with you on that one. Where's TT when you need him?

**TopHatter** · 10-14-2003, 13:34 PM

Look, all I can say is, the Hornet is not exactly a Brewster Buffalo. It is a capable modern strike fighter.

And eh, who is TT?

troung · 10-14-2003, 14:44 PM

The F-14 has a longer range, longer range radar (APG-71), is faster, can attack at longer ranges (AIM-54A/C), can take more bombs over a longer range. The only thing the F/A-18E/F can do nice is act as a tanker for other short range F/A-18E/Fs. Even the agruement about the F/A-18 able to use better PGMs is lame becuase the F-14 was cleared to use many weapons such as the AGM-88, AGM-65, Walleye and AGM-84 but these were never fitted operationaly.

The F/A-18E/F actually uses the APG-73 as found on the F/A-18C/D and will gets its AESA radar by 2006 or so. Compared with a Su-30MKK which is a likely opponent the F/A-18E/F is slower, shorter ranged and carries a smaller payload. The F-14 can shot down an enemy plane at over 100 miles away in thoery and has made kills at 70 or so miles using the AIM-54A (IRIAF).

I think it's a joke like replacing the F-15E with the F-2A or something to that effect but worse.

It would be like replacing the Corsiar of WWII with the Wildcat or Brester Buffalo. The F/A-18E//F would be nice to repalce the F/A-18A/B/C/D not the F-14A/B/D.......

**TopHatter** · 10-14-2003, 14:54 PM

Agreed, the Super Hornet is certainly not the Tomcat. Unfortunately, the Tomcat is heading for the boneyard and the Super Hornet is available right now . Considering how close naval aviation came to collapsing in the 90s, the USN is pretty fortunate to have anything new on the flight decks.

Hawg166 · 10-14-2003, 15:44 PM

Wrong answer shipmate the Hornet is the Brewester Buffalo. How many times is this gonna be batted around? The F18 causes the carrier battle group to loose almost 450 NM of striking range. It cannot at all ever ever ever break Mach1 below 10K even when clean and in burner, It doesnt have the payload of the F14 and when you consider the true cost of R&D, new manufacturing and tooling etc etc etc etc, it doesnt cost any less for a new " " (I hate that airplane) than it does to mod an F14. IT IS POLITICS PEOPLE NOT AIRPLANE **** ! :brick :brick IT DOES NOT REPLACE EITHER THE F14 OR THE A6. There are some awesome numbers posted on the Warthog territory forums about this subject by guys that are really in the know on these things. If anyone gets a chance you oughta check them out. I know you have been in on a few of these rather lengthy and heated discussions Ross. Sorry guys I dont mean to vent.

**TopHatter** · 10-14-2003, 16:00 PM

No problem about the venting as far as I am concerned.
I know the Hornet is not the Tomcat and has not the capabilities of the Tomcat. There was a LOT of shitty politics involved but thats been naval aviation for decades.

bigross86 · 10-15-2003, 04:36 AM

Performance Specs on the two Navy Aircraft.......

F-14D

Max Speed: Mach 2.4
Max Cruising Speed: 550 Kts
Sevice Ceiling: 56,000 ft
Combat Radius: 2,000 N. Miles
CAP Station Endurance: 1hr
Deck Launched Intercept Radius (4XAIM54C 2XAIM7 2XAIM9): 134 NM@ Mach 1.5
Carrier Trap Weight(bringback weight) 51,830lbs
Max Take Off Weight: 74,000 lbs
Weapons Cleared
Air2Air: AIM-54C (6)
AIM-7 (6)
AIM-9 (2)
AIM-120 (6)* F-14D is cleared to carry the slammer, though it does not in USN fleet service today. The Hornets get the slammers, cause they dont have a chance without them.

Air2Ground (Bombcat Configuration)
MK-7, MK-20 Rockeye, CBU-59APAM, CBU-78 Gator, MK-82, MK-83, AN/ALQ "Bullwinkle" LATIRN targeting pod. GBU-24 A/B PavewayIII GBU-16 Paveway II. The F-14D is also cleared to carry the Harpoon anti shipping missile, as well as various anti shipping mines. Basicly the F-14D can carry everything that the venerable A-6 did, but is only carrying the above ordanance in active fleet service today. I presume to give the F-18 something to do.

F-18E/F Super Hornet

Max Speed: Mach 1.8
Max Cruising Speed: 425 Kts
Service Ceiling: 52,000 ft
Combat Radius: 1,200 N. Miles
Max Takeoff Weight: 66,000lbs
Max Trap Weight (Bring Back): 45,000lbs
CAP Endurance: 30 Min

The SuperHornet has 10 Hardpoints, and can carry up to 10 AIM-120's at any one time. The F-18E/F can carry any air to ground ordance the F-14D can, and them some.......The additional air to sea, air to ground ordanance the F-18 is cleared for is the HARM, Harpoon, Shrike,SLAM, SLAM-ER, Walleye, Maverick, JSOW, JDAM.

The F-14D is equiped with the APG-71 Radar, which is only surpased in capabilities by the APG-77 in the F-22. The F-14D is the only aircraft in the world that is capable of carrying the AIM-54C.

The F/A-18E/F is cheaper per sortie to operate, and has a greater turn around time per sortie, but thats what you should expect from a aircraft that is 30 years newer. Thus the only advantage the F/A-18E/F has, (that my biased train of thought reckognizes) is turning radius, cheaper to mantain, and cheaper to operate. But if you caculate the cost overuns additional R&D dollars necessary for a new program, and CVN's sunk as a result of no F-14D's..........Is the F/A-18E/F really cheaper? It certainly is not more capable.

If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right!

Courtesy of TT over at Whiskey Tango

**TopHatter** · 10-15-2003, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigross86
and CVN's sunk as a result of no F-14D's.

Great performance data but the idea that CVN's could be sunk without F-14D's? Come on. Who has got several regiments of Backfires stashed away ready to fight the Third Battle of the Atlantic like it's 1985 again?

10-13-2003, 17:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,691 Country:	Well, speaking off the cuff, there is alot of things about the F-14 that the Super Hornet cannot even come close to replacing. On the hand, the Tomcat is not getting any younger and the Navy needs planes now . From what I've heard, pilots love flying the Hornet and the E/F variants apparently can do more than take off, circle the boat, and then have to refuel. I've heard this and that, hemming and hawing about the Super Hornet but guess what? Perfect too late is the enemy of good enough right now. __________________ If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader. ~John Quincy Adams Last edited by TopHatter : 10-13-2003 at 17:58 PM.

10-14-2003, 04:15 AM	#4 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	I think the Pentagon caused a really FUBAR situation by not following the F-14D with the Tomcat 21. __________________ You're a naughty girl, go to my room!

10-14-2003, 11:12 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ironduke Burgomaster Join Date: 08-02-03 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 6,800 Country:	Does the F/A-18 E/F outperform the F-14 in any areas whatsoever? And if so, by how much? By alot? marginally? __________________ The Buck Stops Here

10-14-2003, 15:44 PM	#12 (permalink)
Hawg166 Regular Join Date: 09-10-03 Location: Western Mass.....with the injuns Posts: 112	Wrong answer shipmate the Hornet is the Brewester Buffalo. How many times is this gonna be batted around? The F18 causes the carrier battle group to loose almost 450 NM of striking range. It cannot at all ever ever ever break Mach1 below 10K even when clean and in burner, It doesnt have the payload of the F14 and when you consider the true cost of R&D, new manufacturing and tooling etc etc etc etc, it doesnt cost any less for a new " " (I hate that airplane) than it does to mod an F14. IT IS POLITICS PEOPLE NOT AIRPLANE **** ! :brick :brick IT DOES NOT REPLACE EITHER THE F14 OR THE A6. There are some awesome numbers posted on the Warthog territory forums about this subject by guys that are really in the know on these things. If anyone gets a chance you oughta check them out. I know you have been in on a few of these rather lengthy and heated discussions Ross. Sorry guys I dont mean to vent. __________________ "Now we shall have ourselves a pell mell battle!" ......The Immortal Memory, Admiral Nelson

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10-14-2003, 09:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,691 Country:	Yeah, the wholesale cancellation/retirement of several aircraft types really screwed up naval aviation. I think the blame for that can be laid at the feet of the A-12 Avenger program. The cost-overruns and subsequent legal fallout of the cancellation of Avenger sucked money right out of so many programs, like the Tomcat and A-6 Intruder.

10-14-2003, 11:41 AM	#7 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,691 Country:	Well, I've been looking through Global Security.org's information and it seems like the Tomcat is faster and has a higher ceiling, and can simultaneously target more aircraft than the Super Hornet. I think where the Hornet shines is in it's advanced electronics, somewhat higher payload and ease of maintaining the beast. This counts for a lot, obviously. The Hornet has gotten alot of flak since it first appeared in the early 80s and some it was justified. It's range bordered on disgraceful due to a monumental ***up in taking the YF-17 Cobra and turning it into the -18 Hornet. But on the other hand, it's performed well in combat, many countries have bought it, and as I said before, the Tomcat is not getting any younger. It first deployed* the year I was born (1975). This is very old technology and unfortunately you can't compare it the B-52, a land -based strategic bomber . Operating an aircraft at sea is rather brutal on said aircraft. The Tomcat has served well and will continue to serve for another 6-7 years, but it's time to retire. The Hornet, for whatever shortcomings she has, is here now, can do the job and that counts for more than an empty flight deck.

10-14-2003, 13:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,691 Country:	Look, all I can say is, the Hornet is not exactly a Brewster Buffalo. It is a capable modern strike fighter. And eh, who is TT?

10-14-2003, 14:54 PM	#11 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,691 Country:	Agreed, the Super Hornet is certainly not the Tomcat. Unfortunately, the Tomcat is heading for the boneyard and the Super Hornet is available right now . Considering how close naval aviation came to collapsing in the 90s, the USN is pretty fortunate to have anything new on the flight decks.

10-14-2003, 16:00 PM	#13 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,691 Country:	No problem about the venting as far as I am concerned. I know the Hornet is not the Tomcat and has not the capabilities of the Tomcat. There was a LOT of shitty politics involved but thats been naval aviation for decades.

10-15-2003, 04:36 AM	#14 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	Performance Specs on the two Navy Aircraft....... F-14D Max Speed: Mach 2.4 Max Cruising Speed: 550 Kts Sevice Ceiling: 56,000 ft Combat Radius: 2,000 N. Miles CAP Station Endurance: 1hr Deck Launched Intercept Radius (4XAIM54C 2XAIM7 2XAIM9): 134 NM@ Mach 1.5 Carrier Trap Weight(bringback weight) 51,830lbs Max Take Off Weight: 74,000 lbs Weapons Cleared Air2Air: AIM-54C (6) AIM-7 (6) AIM-9 (2) AIM-120 (6)* F-14D is cleared to carry the slammer, though it does not in USN fleet service today. The Hornets get the slammers, cause they dont have a chance without them. Air2Ground (Bombcat Configuration) MK-7, MK-20 Rockeye, CBU-59APAM, CBU-78 Gator, MK-82, MK-83, AN/ALQ "Bullwinkle" LATIRN targeting pod. GBU-24 A/B PavewayIII GBU-16 Paveway II. The F-14D is also cleared to carry the Harpoon anti shipping missile, as well as various anti shipping mines. Basicly the F-14D can carry everything that the venerable A-6 did, but is only carrying the above ordanance in active fleet service today. I presume to give the F-18 something to do. F-18E/F Super Hornet Max Speed: Mach 1.8 Max Cruising Speed: 425 Kts Service Ceiling: 52,000 ft Combat Radius: 1,200 N. Miles Max Takeoff Weight: 66,000lbs Max Trap Weight (Bring Back): 45,000lbs CAP Endurance: 30 Min The SuperHornet has 10 Hardpoints, and can carry up to 10 AIM-120's at any one time. The F-18E/F can carry any air to ground ordance the F-14D can, and them some.......The additional air to sea, air to ground ordanance the F-18 is cleared for is the HARM, Harpoon, Shrike,SLAM, SLAM-ER, Walleye, Maverick, JSOW, JDAM. The F-14D is equiped with the APG-71 Radar, which is only surpased in capabilities by the APG-77 in the F-22. The F-14D is the only aircraft in the world that is capable of carrying the AIM-54C. The F/A-18E/F is cheaper per sortie to operate, and has a greater turn around time per sortie, but thats what you should expect from a aircraft that is 30 years newer. Thus the only advantage the F/A-18E/F has, (that my biased train of thought reckognizes) is turning radius, cheaper to mantain, and cheaper to operate. But if you caculate the cost overuns additional R&D dollars necessary for a new program, and CVN's sunk as a result of no F-14D's..........Is the F/A-18E/F really cheaper? It certainly is not more capable. If you are not having fun, you are not doing it right! Courtesy of TT over at Whiskey Tango

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