uss

Its been a while but it is good to be back. My good wishes to all posters. Aah i love starting a X vs Y thread, there is soo much passion in such discussion, hopefully this one will be intelligent without any flaming: )

here is the question:

A2A and A2G, which plane wins? Now and in the near future?

IMHO the winner is the Su 30MKI. Why?

1) longer range + endurance
2) greater weapons payload
3) Bigger, more powerful radar based on the given links (it is v.difficult to find a good link on RBE 2's range by the way). Su 30 is rated at 150-160 kms while Rafale is rated at 100km.
4) better or equally good ECM equipmt and self defence (Spectra Vs tranquil - using el 8222) and a rearward facing NO12 radar which can fire the R 73)
5) better range of optic surveillance suite- IRST, laser designation, fLIR etc (90km Vs 80km)
6) TVC
7) cheaper by far!
8) v.good avionics further enhanced by 2 pilots
9) longer a2a ranged missiles (R77, R27 etc newer versions esp.)

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_295.shtml
vs
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_407.shtml

Future possible developments for the SU 30MKI:

1) AESA radar
2) Brahmos A2G missiles
3) greater rCS reduction materials
4) I have even read somewhere of it getting Meteor
5) Astra
6) Israeli missiles (popeye, crystal maze, delilah, python 5 etc) are always a distinct possibilty
7) KS 172 (aah this one is too good)

Possible advantges for Rafale at present or future: 1) better rcs figures (supposed to be stealthy, but then with external weapons how does it matter so much?), 2) Scalp EG, 3) erm, ehm, ehm ....alright can't find any!

Yup, the Rafale's a good plane, but IMHO it is waaay too pricey and can't hold up to the SU 30MKI in present form and in near future avatars

go ahead have fun dissecting this one

Regards,
USS.

avon1944

> USS
> A2A and A2G, which plane wins? Now and in the near future?
I would place my money on the Rafale! I say this because personally I feel the Rafale is more survivable. Its lower RCS and more important its active cancellation radar jamming system will great enhance its ability to remain undetected. The Rafale's radar is also less detectible being a LPI radar.
Yes the Su-30MKI has better avionics than the other Russian aircraft but, the avionics are not "fifth generation" avionics. The Su-30 carry a heavier weapons load, greater range and, due to the depressed economy in Russia the Suhkoi is cheaper.... you get what you pay for.

The Sukhoi's low speed performance is exceptional but, the low speed dogfight is "not" productive for high one sided kill ratios! The low speed dogfight and furball goes a long way to provide parity because in the furball most kills are made by the unseen shooter!

The Rafale is a true "omni-role" war plane, first class in all roles. It is not the fighter the Typhoon or Suhkoi are but, their advantage is slight and the many other roles of which these aircraft maybe require to fill is where the Rafale to excel. In the air combat role, the Rafale is designed to kill quickly and effeciently to avoid air parity. The avionics the Rafale has provides the pilot with greater situational awareness. This superior interface will provide the pilot with information without overloading the pilot with its workload.
The Rafale like the F/A-18E/F can be sent aloft with a variety of weapons and have the aircraft do any role.

I am not saying the Su-30MKI is not a good aircraft, it is just the F-22, Rafale and, Typhoon are true fifth generation aircraft. The Su-30 is a fourth and a half or modified fourth generation aircraft. I feel the same way when comparing the F-15K to the Rafale! The F-15K is basically an F-15E Eagle on a F-15C frame, complete with the Sidewinder-9X/HMDS and Slammer Missiles.

Adrian

hello

Rafale and Typhoon are NOT gen5 AC. For a fighter to be gen5, it must be stealthy. That way the only gen5 AC are Raptor, JSF and PAKFA. Plus the Rafale, Typhoon and SuperHornet are all "omnirole" fighters which carry a multipurpose payload. That way the f22 is also multipurpose as who knows what all it can do.

highsea

The Pak-fa is so stealthy, no one's ever even seen one....

__________________
My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

jgetti

What are you talking about? The F-15K uses the exact same airframe the F-15E uses. The enhancements of both the E and the K have been quite extensive since the E came to be in the 80's. I wouldn't put my money against an E or any of it's variants for that matter in any engagement situation,, ATG or ATA with any other CURRENTLY produced aircraft. There's a reason they cost 70 mil a copy, and believe me, it's not because of antiquated manufacturing techniques....

Anon

Hmmmm. I'd thought the K was based on the C model Eagles lighter airframe. The E model is not as agile as the C.

jgetti

The basic takeoff weight between the two is about 4000lbs difference, so the potential ATA performance of the E variants with the same amount of fuel as a comparable C is slightly reduced. However, the later E's and their variants also use the F100-PW229 engines or in the case of the K, GE engines, each with approx. 29000lbs thrust, whereas the C's have the F100-PW220 engines with about 5000lbs thrust less per engine. The flight control computers and control laws were improved for the E's (and variants) as well. So yes, the mass of the E's and their variants is higher with the same amount of fuel as a comparable C, but when the aircraft are at equal weights, the acceleration/agility of the E's is actually better.

Anon

Hmmm, i've taken that position on my board before and got creamed by the pilots who all scoffed at the notion.

I do agree with you that intuitively, that would seem to be the case.

Apparently the -229 doesn't have the right characteristics for the air supremacy mission, or something. If they're using the same GE plants as used in the late block big mouth inlet Vipers, then perhaps the problem was solved.

jgetti

I hadn't heart that before. On the other hand,, the dark grays almost always have a heavier loadout and are almost always carrying targeting pods, the CFT's have more and larger racks for carrying the bombs, etc, etc, etc,.. So the similar weight, similar drag condition probably rarely happens in the fleet if ever.

In addition, I know that pilots of the light grays despise the dark grays because we turned their fighter into a bomb truck,,, and no matter how good it is air to air, they've made up in their minds that they don't like it. Not one pound for air to ground,, hehe. We usually end up going a few rounds on that topic at the annual maintainers conference at Warner Robins.

On a different note, here's something interesting.... When the conformal fuel tanks are put on the birds,, C-E's,, the pitch response of the aircraft actually increases. Apparently, they cause the geometry of the fuse to generate more lift than with the wing roots exposed.

uss

Adrian,

here are a few questions:
What do you know about the RCS figures of the Su 30MKI? vis a vis the Rafale?

Sure the rafale is a lo a/c, but what big advantage does this offer when all your weapons are carried externally?

Please don't include the EF 2000 and the Rafale in the same class as the Raptor Keep the Raptor out of it.

The active cancellation bit sounds impressive, has it been implemented ? Also I thought only the AESA radars were LPI radars. Are you referring to the future (AMSAR?) or the current RBE2?

Rangewise and pricewise (you could probly have 2 MKIs for one Rafale!), the MKI has too much of an advantage. It would be hell to pay if the Rafale always wound up in a 1 VS 2 situation against the MKI. At any rate, the MKI, even single handeldy seems to have some definite advantages over the Rafale (radar range and power or missile range for example).

Kind Regards,
USS.

Unipidity

Meteor will change that somewhat; despite hating phantom planes that dont exist, I will consider it because Rafale was designed in the knowledge that Meteor will be around within the decade.

LPI radars have been around since donkey's as far as I know. The F-14 had an LPI radar, though no doubt LPI means about as much as 'stealthy'.

Franco Lolan

Isn't the "Meteor"a European BVR AAM?

uss

franco, unipidity:

yes, the MBDA made Meteor will change things for certain. And this still won't compensate for the relatively poorer power of the RBE2 vis a vis the Bars NO11M (w. indian computers). The MKI is further scheduled to get a large amount of composites and RCS reduction and the IRBIS radar followed by an AESA. Rafale too should have an AESA in time. It Will be interesting indeed.

USS.

newton

Well......... I Belive Even If Pak'tan Gets Them ....india Can Beat Them .we All Know The Standards Of Pilots From Both The Countries .....indian Pilots R Considered 2nd Best After Israelies....

Simullacrum

Man.... people do talk a lot of c'rap..!!!!