uss

Its been a while but it is good to be back. My good wishes to all posters. Aah i love starting a X vs Y thread, there is soo much passion in such discussion, hopefully this one will be intelligent without any flaming: )

here is the question:

A2A and A2G, which plane wins? Now and in the near future?

IMHO the winner is the Su 30MKI. Why?

1) longer range + endurance
2) greater weapons payload
3) Bigger, more powerful radar based on the given links (it is v.difficult to find a good link on RBE 2's range by the way). Su 30 is rated at 150-160 kms while Rafale is rated at 100km.
4) better or equally good ECM equipmt and self defence (Spectra Vs tranquil - using el 8222) and a rearward facing NO12 radar which can fire the R 73)
5) better range of optic surveillance suite- IRST, laser designation, fLIR etc (90km Vs 80km)
6) TVC
7) cheaper by far!
8) v.good avionics further enhanced by 2 pilots
9) longer a2a ranged missiles (R77, R27 etc newer versions esp.)

Future developments for the SU 30MKI:

1) AESA radar
2) Brahmos A2G missiles
3) greater rCS reduction materials
4) I have even heard of it getting Meteor
5) Astra
6) Israeli missiles (popeye, crystal maze, delilah, python 5 etc) are always a distinct possibilty

Possible advantges for Rafale: 1) better rcs figures (supposed to be stealthy, but then with external weapons how does it matter so much?), 2) Scalp EG, 3) erm, ehm, ehm ....alright can't find any!

Yup, the Rafale's a good plane, but IMHO it is waaay too pricey and can't hold up to the SU 30MKI in present form and in near future avatars

go ahead have fun dissecting this one

Regards,
USS.

hello

Please, uss do not make duplicates of the same thread over and over again.

uss

Sorry, happened due to bizarre login type error. How can I delete it? Or does a mod have to do this?

Regards,
USS>

muralidaran1958

i still feel sukhoi will outmanouvere rafale

highsea

Since detection range is rated against a standard target size (i.e. 5m^2), actual performance has to be weighed against the actual target size. SU-30 is 10-13 m^2 frontal RCS, while Rafale is 0.1-0.3 m^2. So SU-30's detection will be much lower than the advertised number against the Rafale, while the Rafale's range will be higher than advertised against SU-30.I don't think you can say theat the SU-30's ECM suite is better than Spectra, since the data is classified. Spectra is reputed to be very good. Anyone can hang an ECM pod, so that shouldn't enter into the comparison. The SU-30 is not fitted with the N012 radar.Same qualifier that applies to the radar applies here also- the SU-30 has a much bigger footprint than Rafale.Of questionable utility IRL. What's important is entering into the engagement in an advantageous position, and the Rafale pilot may have better SA due to higher degree of sensor fusion and lower RCS. The Rafale has a very good chance of seeing the SU-30 first, imv.
Very true.How do the pilots enhance the avionics? 1 vs. 2 pilots is more of an avionics and sensor fusion matter, i.e., Russia has been very slow in making a multi-role AC that one pilot can manage.Missile range is a function of launch parameters, and the Russians are known for quoting unrealistic numbers, i.e. the R-77's head on range is based on a Mach 1.5 launch at FL300 ASL against a target doing the same thing. That would be fine if fighter aircraft flew around on AB, but they don't. Western missiles are usually rated at launch parameters of 0.9 mach and FL300 ASL- so naturally the engagement range will be a lower figure, but more realistic. In fact, no engagements take place at RMax anyway- it's just a waste of a missile. The seeker of the R-77 has a advertised range of 16 km against a 5m^2 target, and a uplink range of 50 km.

Equally important is the flight profiles of the missiles and the quality of their seekers, fusing, and computing power. Western technology is proven superior the Russians in these areas, and the R-77 still does not have a lofted flight profile. You can have a great airframe and long range, but if the electronics are only AIM-7 quality, you will still only have a .30 pk.

Russian missiles do not have a veryy good reputation for pk, and the French missiles do. The Rafale is a more modern AC, with arguably better weapons and ECM/ECCM/EW capabilities, and a significantly lower RCS. I would give the technical advantage to Rafale.

__________________
My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

uss

[quote=highsea]To a certain extent this would be true, but let us not make it such a huge advantage that the Rafale will actually detect the Su 30MKI first. With its external weapons, RCS advantages would be considerably neutralized and increasing the the RCS figures you quote are of an avg SU 30, not an enhanced MKI, which incorporates a greater amount of composites etc. New RCS reducing technologies seem to do a pretty good job on older airframs (good example is MiG 29k which is supposed to have a 400-500% reduction in RCS than the older MiG29). One thing the smaller size of the RAfale assures is difficulty in acquiring the it visually in WVR. So this is an advantage for the Rafale


I did not say the MKI's ECM suite is necessarily better (if you reread, it says as good if not better). the last I read at Vayu Sena.com, the MKI was supposed to carry the NO12.

So the TVC has questionable utitlity in an engagement eh? perhaps it has no utility in flight performance either? Wow, i wonder why they put this damned feature in there in the first place? And more wow, why did they put it for the F22 considering it is pretty inutile in the first place?


I'm sorry I did not put that clearly. My point is that the the 2 pilots just make flying easier by reducing workload.


proven superiority eh? proven where may I ask? I would like to know where you get this information. Everywhere I have checked, the R-77 has a longer range than ones you quote. And is quoted as a v.formidable weapon. But now you say there is just way too much technical inferiority in said missile compared to western missiles. No matter that this missile during it's terminal stages can go by i in passive mode and does not need any datalinking? And that it has fantastic aerodynamics and excellent turning abilities with novel control surfaces and lower rcs because of the almost non existence of fins. All this is a bunch of *******s eh? if the specs look better for the MKI, they look better period. hairsplitting and western technology being better than russians in a particular field making the russian missile useless won't work. And let alone the R77, what about the R27? or is the latter not even worth hanging off your a/c? In fact, I would guess that the R27 would be even more dangerous considering that it has medium to long range works using infrared guidance and there is no need for the radar to guide the missile. It would be v.difficult to jam this missile with a low emitting infrared seeker.

and even with all the russian weapon's drawbacks what does rafale have that can even come close to the 100km range as of now? In the future it will get Meteor, by then God knows what the SU 30MKI will get (possibly the meteor + bunch of Israeli weapons?+ advanced versions of R77)

You seem to be making the mistake of equating the Su 30 with the SU 30 MKI, remember they are v.different a/c. As I said, the Rafale is a good plane with great technology, but the Su30mki is just as good and offers some major advantages in BVR and A2G and even WVR


Russian missiles do not have a great reputation for Probability of kill because: their tactics can be different. PK is nothing but number of missiles fired divided by number of hits or kills. Such information is often published or released as propaganda. An airforce that trains to fire multiple missiles at a single target to ensure a kill in difficult circumstances will obviously effect the PK number.

Indeed the "technical" advantage might be with the rafale, but when it comes to actually fighting, the obsolete tech of the russians kills other a/c just as well. If this was not the case they would not be trying to jam these missiles with fancy jamming equipmt.

Regards,
USS.

highsea

I will leave you to your delusions.

uss

...and I leave you to yours. Afterall some do say this world is nothing more than that

avon1944

> USS
> A2A and A2G, which plane wins? Now and in the near future?
If I were the pilot and my life was on the line, I woulf go with the Rafale, Typhoon, F-22, etc. The Su-30MKI is a modification of an older design, not a new design that is new from ground up.
Yes, the Su-30 has a powerful radar but, the sensativity of its reciever is not as good as its Western counterparts. That is why Russia went to India to design or improve the avionics which is the difference between the M, MK and, the MKI-variant. Avionics is the "acchilles heel" of Soviet or Russian designed aircraft.
The Soviet Union wanted the world to know about their new fighters, they did not ask TASS, Ivestia or some Soviet Military magazine. They asked Aviation Week and Space Technology to do "pilot reports" (PIREP) for the MiG.-29, 1990 (02/26/09 issue) and the Su-27 (09/24/90 issue Pg. 32 to 41). While the Su-27 did not start operational status with the VVS until 1988 even though the design started in 1969 just like the F-14A and F-15A! So, in the PIREP what the discuss comes to the avionics, the Soviets freely admit the avionics are of the F-4 Phantom vintage!
RBE2 is second ability only to the AN/APG-77 of the F-22. The ability of the active cancellation type of jamming defeats enemy attemps to detect it by radar. The Rafale and Typhoon both have lower RCS.

> IMHO the winner is the Su 30MKI. Why?
While the Su-27 & family can do some great maneuvers at an air show, in combat, there are things about these maneuvers most people don't know about!
The Su-27/fam have to less than 70% of fuel remaining! Any more fuel and the instability problems can not be handled bu the controls! A pilot can not start initiate the cobra or hook at speeds above 450mph (720KmHr) or the decelleration will cause 12+ G's on the airframe. Most of the capabilities of the supermaneuverability is for low speed "guns" aerial combat ONLY!

Adrian

Cowboykiller

Never pick an Indian Russian designed fighter over it's western counterpart.

ajaybhutani

u are irritating..

hello

Yeah, he's irritating. The mki isn't really indian; it's russian and china has it too. And that doesn't really determine the country totally.

ajaybhutani

china dsnt have an MKI.,,
MKI's I means india
for china its MKK. and the two aircrafts are completely different.

hello

The two A/Cs aren't completly different; they're quite similar. The mki has slightly better radar, ecm and tvc.

ajaybhutani

so they arent the same rite ..