Indian Air Force vs. US Air Force

**Jay** · 07 Sep 05,, 13:47

From your source,

This machine has used the advanced air operated contour and the big thrust force, the low consumption turbofan engine, as well as the advanced digital fax flies controls the system, the integrated aviation electron and the armament system, has in the launch to be apart from the ball, to realize the multi- goals beyond line of sight attack ability, has many kinds of advanced precise function and so on navigation, battlefield situation sensation, target detection and recognition, operational attack as well as electronic warfare.

Because has used the contemporary advanced design and the manufacture technology, the owlet dragon/FC-1 airplane had achieved the third generation fighter aircraft synthesis fighting efficiency, can contend with with now the advanced fighter aircraft, simultaneously has the low cost the characteristic, completely adapts the modern warfare request and the military airplane market demand.

Thats a piece of garbage written over there. some one from global security used a poor chinese lang converter.

Regardless, we have been seeing lots of news reports leaked from China/Pakistan about JF-17's avionics and so far none of them are advanced or ground breaking as you claimed.

If you have any other info about avionics, share with us. Until then, I will continue to say that JF-17 at the most has a late 3rd gen fighter capability.

**dabrownguy** · 07 Sep 05,, 17:51

forum. Anyone who has followed J-10 would realize that J-10 is a far superior platform than su-27. In air to air combat between J-10 and su-27 and su-30mkk squadrons in China, J-10 totally owned su-27 and su-30mkk in all air to air combat. Between J-10 and su-27, I think the kill score was 5:0.

Thats crap. The Typhoon only has a 5:1 kill ratio against a Su-35 and the Raptor had 10:1. Considering the Typhoon to be 5 gen and it has a 5:1 kill ratio against teh Su-35 which is supererior to the Su-27. Hmmm. Somthing is wrong. BTW 5:0 is like not a kill ratio since the J-10 didn't loose. You made that up.

That's because the planes that the Russians were offering are inferior to J-10.

No thats because PLAAF are pushing for more Russian stuff. Ever heard of bargaining?

As for JF-17, I'm not sure what it's real ability is, since it hasn't shown itself in any kind of military exercise or combat. I personally think plaaf doesn't need it and should get as many j-10s as it can get. Same with LCA, the project is labled by the Indian media as a waste of money. It still only has 4 prototypes and isn't going anywhere. IAF is placing a mamoth 20 plane order for it. And is choosing amongst foreign fighter jets again for that order of 126. Does that look like IAF has any kind of confidence in LCA? Be rational. Compare what China is doing with J-10 to what IAF is doing with LCA. Ask yourself how successful LCA really is?

You be rational. Don't you know how India buys Indian stuff? In batches. The 20 ordered will be for operational and tactical development with an American engine. Considering the requirements for the IAF they are gonna need a lot more than 124+190!

In combat, J-8 and J-7 will most likely be going against Mig-21 bisons and Mig-23s. I personally think J-8 dominates Mig-23s and bisons, but that's just me, because I read a lot about the upgrades done to J-8, but not much about the IAF low level planes.

Thats you cause your an idoit. The Bison is superior to the J-8 and J-7. It has better EW system and are R-77 capable. What can the J-8 do?

As for su-30mkk/mkk2 vs su-30mki, it depends on the time. As of now, China has 100 mkk/mkk2 vs 40 mki in IAF (also, not all the mki are upgraded to the final stage), so I think mkks can take the mkis on. In the future, it will definitely be J-10 vs mki

We know nothing of the J-10 besides you making crap up. Were is your source? Do we have to believe you?
Your right about the MKI not being in the final upgrade. The current version is supperior to the MKK2 the later versions will have AESA!

by the time you guys have a fleet of mkis and mig35s, J-10 will also be upgraded to the twin-engine version with dsi and better radar than it has now. I personally think it will be better than su-30mki and mig35s, just because J-10 already has shown itself against the 4th generation Russian planes. The twin engine J-10 is supposed to be similar in performance to Mig1.44.

Ha. That is some serious dumbness. J-10 has not internal weapons bay and is a single engined figher. 2 engines would require a completely new jet. Hence this is the reason China is developing the J-12. BTW the J-10 hasn't shown it's self. If J-10 is such a success why is China developing the Mighty Thundar?

Like everyone pointed out the IAF missile inventory is superior to the PLAAF.

ou should notice in the recent China-Russia military exercise, China intentionally hid its most advanced weapons like 052C, 054, yuan sub and J-10 and missiles like SD-10 and YJ-85.

Do you know that Chinese sources are the same ones making all those CG fantasy images and PSing the pictures to make it look cooler. Are you one of them?

I have a feeling it's going to be 200 su-27/J-11 (btw, J-11 is about 30-40% better than su-27sk according to most Chinese sources) against mirage2000/su-27 of IAF

How? Can it carry more missiles? Does it have the range of the agility? I doubt it.

. The way this is going, Russia will crack soon and actually offer something to China equal to the mkis.

Yea the Su-35. But even thats not on PAR with the MKI.

As for J-10 vs LCA, does it matter whether or not J-10 got some head start with Lavi? every plane gets some head start from other projects. The most important part is that J-10 is done and LCA is not.

Not true. THe ones in service are not complete. Fully complete J-10 will have IRST inflight refueling.

Do you want to go through the attackers and bombers?

Yes.

Considering that the FC-1's avonics are not enough for the PAF which are actually using a forign radar. Why is the FC-1 can't share it's avonics from the J-10?

**tphuang** · 08 Sep 05,, 03:14

Originally Posted by dabrownguy

Thats crap. The Typhoon only has a 5:1 kill ratio against a Su-35 and the Raptor had 10:1. Considering the Typhoon to be 5 gen and it has a 5:1 kill ratio against teh Su-35 which is supererior to the Su-27. Hmmm. Somthing is wrong. BTW 5:0 is like not a kill ratio since the J-10 didn't loose. You made that up.

Go to any Chinese web site and read it up. It's widely posted in China. You can choose to believe it or not. And it's against su-27, not su-35. J-10 wouldn't be able to beat su-35. If you can read Chinese, I'd direct you to all a site that reports this. Then again, you still probably would not believe it until you see with your eyes. And read up on the specs of J-10 sometimes, and then you'd probably see that it has far superior stats than su-27. Including speed, g, T/W ratio, hard points and avionics. I'm not comparing it to su-35 or su-30mki, those have far better radar and improved plane structure versus su-27 and su-30mkk.

No thats because PLAAF are pushing for more Russian stuff. Ever heard of bargaining?

Wow, you really are BSing now. If there is one thing China needs, that is new and better weapons really fast. Because of the Taiwan situation, China decided to go ahead with mass production of J-10 despite the fact that the engine made for it (WS-10A) was not even ready. As a result, they had to buy a lot of AL-31FN. Because of Taiwan, China bought the mkk, because they would get delivered faster. All this is because China wants the balance tilted to the point that Taiwan would not declare independence before 2008 (because of Olympics/Taiwanese election). Time is not on China's side. Look at the buying spree that China had in the past few years. They are about to buy even more IL-76, Il-78 and Tu-22M3s from Russia. The only thing they are not getting is su-30mkk. If su-27/su-30mkk were better, China would not be suspending one contract and not buying the other.

You be rational. Don't you know how India buys Indian stuff? In batches. The 20 ordered will be for operational and tactical development with an American engine. Considering the requirements for the IAF they are gonna need a lot more than 124+190!

No, I don't. I'm not Indian. If they are going to buy more, then good for them. I thought I read a lot of people who said that Indian media is calling LCA a waste of money. Considering you guys only four prototypes out after all these years, I can see why.

Thats you cause your an idoit. The Bison is superior to the J-8 and J-7. It has better EW system and are R-77 capable. What can the J-8 do?

Right, I'm an idiot. Yet, you can't even spell the word correctly. Nice one.

top speed mach2.2, g limit 6.9, equipped with SD-10 and a radar that's good enough to use it, so it has BVR capability. I don't know exact radar of KLJ-1, but it has to be better than Zhuk-8II (70KM detection forward and 40KM detection backward), because it replaced it. So, what are the numbers on the radar of bison?

We know nothing of the J-10 besides you making crap up. Were is your source? Do we have to believe you?

No you don't. But judge by yourself, read what China is doing and the effort it puts behind J-10, judge for yourself. As I said, I can give you a lot of sites, but they are in Chinese.

Your right about the MKI not being in the final upgrade. The current version is supperior to the MKK2 the later versions will have AESA!

I never said that MKI is not better than MK2 or that the later versions would not be good. I'm very impressed by su-30MKI, that's why I think China should try to get su-35 to match it.

Ha. That is some serious dumbness. J-10 has not internal weapons bay and is a single engined figher. 2 engines would require a completely new jet. Hence this is the reason China is developing the J-12. BTW the J-10 hasn't shown it's self. If J-10 is such a success why is China developing the Mighty Thundar?

Like everyone pointed out the IAF missile inventory is superior to the PLAAF.

that's why it's going to take a little longer to develop the double engined J-10. But then again, you guys won't be finished with su-30mkis until 2015. They are getting a lot of help from the Mig1.44 project. Yeah, there are competing next generation jets in China, the double engined and stealthy J-10 and the J-XX project. I would be laughing if one of those two finishes ahead of LCA. JF-17 is a piece of garbage. We are doing it for two reasons:
1. help out Pakistan
2. to replace the low end planes, because it is much cheaper than J-10.
Personally, many Chinese don't even think we should buy any JF-17. As for J-12, it's goal is to be as good as F-22 (although that won't happen), but that's it's goal. It's trying to be a fifth generation plane.

Do you know that Chinese sources are the same ones making all those CG fantasy images and PSing the pictures to make it look cooler. Are you one of them?

No, I'm not. I'm insulted that you would even go that low.

How? Can it carry more missiles? Does it have the range of the agility? I doubt it.

Do a google search, even the Sukhoi officials admitted that the most recently produced J-11s are better than the original su-27. Reason is that China is equipping it with better radar (not as good as KLJ-3, but still better than the original Russian ones). Also, China is fully indigenizing the J-11, so the structure of the plane is slightly changed to be more like su-30mkk. Even so, it's still garbage, but then again, so are su-27/mirage2000. You can see I don't have much respect for earlier models of su-27 and mig-29.

Yea the Su-35. But even thats not on PAR with the MKI.

Things look good for mki, but the su-35 is not really in production, so we don't know what it's really going to be like.

Not true. THe ones in service are not complete. Fully complete J-10 will have IRST inflight refueling.

There is this thing called upgrade. You may notice that su-30mkis haven't achieved their full potentials either. In fact, J-10 is not going to stop upgrading anytime soon. New radar is getting developed for it. WS-10A should make it better. Hopefully, China will actually be smart enough to put some long range AAMs on it. As for J-10, it's in service, there are multiple squadrons of J-10s in service right now. Think about it, we already have almost 50 of them.

Yes.

Considering that the FC-1's avonics are not enough for the PAF which are actually using a forign radar. Why is the FC-1 can't share it's avonics from the J-10?

bombers, China is getting TU-22M3 (they are old, but it's still good to have them). JH-7A is claimed by many to be as good as su-30mkk for attacking missions. Also, su-30mk2 is good for naval attacking missions.

As for FC-1, the first 50 avionics delivered to FC-1 will be using Chinese Avionics. We know that the radars put on FC-1 is definitely not as good as the one put on J-10. The reason why PAF want Western ones is because the Western ones are proven (that's pretty obvious). But it must be said that the ones supplied are still good enough to pass the PAF standards. It's just that they are trying to make it as good as LCA/su-30mki (which isn't going to happen). Whereas in China's case, we just don't care about JF-17.

**indianguy4u** · 08 Sep 05,, 07:33

tphuang just b'coz all u quote are from chinese website nobody here is gonna change their perception about chinese R&D capabilities. So untill and unless a neutral source come along all what u have said is not proven.

PS: When u are telling that indians here are being to much patriotic in championing LCA cause, its same (could/couldnt) with the writers of chinese websites u read.

**lemontree** · 08 Sep 05,, 08:02

Originally Posted by tphuang

I don't really think India will go to war against China again, so all of these comparisons are just based on hypothetical arguments around the quantity/quality of the ACs.

That is what these stupid threads are - like silly debates on IAF and Turkish Airforce

Just hypothetical brainstorming sessions.

I personally do think it helps to have a lot of cannon fodders. It distracts enemy from the main force. But yeah, China definitely would not pull its most advanced ACs from Taiwan strait. It will probably send over a bunch of its latest J8IIs.

But back to topic, currently an Indo-Sino war is a distant realitly as both nations have been pragmatic and are developing their economy. However, most China watchers feel (as our WAB Colonel (OoE) a Sino expert) and most service men feel that an Indo-Sino war will mainly be infantry-arty intensive on the high mountains and the only thing that can give India an edge is the IAF. The navy will be restricted to sentry duties around likely PLAN threats (as PLAN currently does not have the assets to threaten Indian intrests).

**ajaybhutani** · 08 Sep 05,, 08:38

Originally Posted by dabrownguy

Thats you cause your an idoit.

That was never needed dude. Hes representing his opinion just as you are...

**tphuang** · 08 Sep 05,, 14:11

Originally Posted by indianguy4u

tphuang just b'coz all u quote are from chinese website nobody here is gonna change their perception about chinese R&D capabilities. So untill and unless a neutral source come along all what u have said is not proven.

PS: When u are telling that indians here are being to much patriotic in championing LCA cause, its same (could/couldnt) with the writers of chinese websites u read.

I basically mentionned one. That is the J-10. It's based on Lavi which is from F-16. It's not a F-16 clone as some have quoted, but it does often get compared to F-16s. So, you can base your judgements on that. Sure, those writers are patriotic, but the exercises between su-27/mkk and j-10 are mentionned by too many people. And if you look at the capabilities of the planes and what the Chinese government is doing, you start seeing why they actually happened.

**indianguy4u** · 08 Sep 05,, 14:16

Originally Posted by tphuang

I basically mentionned one. That is the J-10. It's based on Lavi which is from F-16. It's not a F-16 clone as some have quoted, but it does often get compared to F-16s. So, you can base your judgements on that. Sure, those writers are patriotic, but the exercises between su-27/mkk and j-10 are mentionned by too many people. And if you look at the capabilities of the planes and what the Chinese government is doing, you start seeing why they actually happened.

I just meant ppl need hard facts. If it had been in reputed source then it would be possible to digest easily info. Its same with everyone.

Why doesnt plaaf or other wing of chinese def exercise to west.

**indianguy4u** · 08 Sep 05,, 14:17

Does plaaf has any prog of sending Af pilots to west for training etc.

**~~Sameer~~** · 08 Sep 05,, 17:17

Originally Posted by tphuang

I basically mentionned one. That is the J-10. It's based on Lavi which is from F-16. It's not a F-16 clone as some have quoted, but it does often get compared to F-16s. So, you can base your judgements on that. Sure, those writers are patriotic, but the exercises between su-27/mkk and j-10 are mentionned by too many people. And if you look at the capabilities of the planes and what the Chinese government is doing, you start seeing why they actually happened.

There should be one regiment of J-10 operational close to beijing, between 20-50 planes have been mentioned.

**dabrownguy** · 08 Sep 05,, 20:12

Go to any Chinese web site and read it up. It's widely posted in China. You can choose to believe it or not. And it's against su-27, not su-35. J-10 wouldn't be able to beat su-35. If you can read Chinese, I'd direct you to all a site that reports this. Then again, you still probably would not believe it until you see with your eyes. And read up on the specs of J-10 sometimes, and then you'd probably see that it has far superior stats than su-27. Including speed, g, T/W ratio, hard points and avionics. I'm not comparing it to su-35 or su-30mki, those have far better radar and improved plane structure versus su-27 and su-30mkk.

First off I did go to Chinese military sites. CDF and SDF.
As for the EF vs Su35 the EF was actually simulating a Metaor missile. Read up on it. As for Hardpoints. How does the Su-27 loose to the J-10? The Su-27 can carry 10 AAM. J-10 can only carry 6 at most. The rest are for dumb bombs. Speed. Pff. What planet are you from. And I doubt the J-10 could pull more G rates. But does it matter? The Su-27 has a higher angle of attack. I stopped believing Chinese sources like yours when they claim RED AGEIS and HQ-9 with a range of 300 km. Please post a source!

Wow, you really are BSing now. If there is one thing China needs, that is new and better weapons really fast. Because of the Taiwan situation, China decided to go ahead with mass production of J-10 despite the fact that the engine made for it (WS-10A) was not even ready. As a result, they had to buy a lot of AL-31FN.

So what does that say?

Time is not on China's side. Look at the buying spree that China had in the past few years. They are about to buy even more IL-76, Il-78 and Tu-22M3s from Russia. The only thing they are not getting is su-30mkk. If su-27/su-30mkk were better, China would not be suspending one contract and not buying the other.

Say you are right and PLAAF will buy more J-10. Wonderfull. But did you maybe think they stopped to fill gaps in the AF? Since the Su-27 is only a air to air weapon. Perhaps PLAAF is pushing for the Su-35 upgrade.

Ever wondar why the IAF doesn't purchase 700 Su-30MKI? No it's not because they don't have the cash. Its because LCA and MRCA are needed to fill gaps of ground attack and interception. Why did you think the US bought the F-16 when the F-15 is superior. Just because PLAAF dicides to buy the J-10 doesn't make it superior to the Su-27. It even has less range and payload.

No, I don't. I'm not Indian. If they are going to buy more, then good for them. I thought I read a lot of people who said that Indian media is calling LCA a waste of money. Considering you guys only four prototypes out after all these years, I can see why.

Trust the Indian Media.

top speed mach2.2, g limit 6.9, equipped with SD-10 and a radar that's good enough to use it, so it has BVR capability.

So what about speed? The Raptor has a speed of Mach 1.6. Its energy that counts in dog fights. In BVR the Bison has the R-77. I don't see the J-8 using the SD-10 when its not complete yet. The J-8 is trash. And considering the RCS of the J-8 it'll be locked on pretty fast.

I don't know exact radar of KLJ-1, but it has to be better than Zhuk-8II (70KM detection forward and 40KM detection backward), because it replaced it. So, what are the numbers on the radar of bison?

The Zhuk has less radar range. But what weapons can the J-8 carry? How many are BVR and in service compared to the 125 off Bison? But does the J-8 radar range matter when its uses a inferior R-27 missile compared to the R-77 the Bision uses.

No you don't. But judge by yourself, read what China is doing and the effort it puts behind J-10, judge for yourself. As I said, I can give you a lot of sites, but they are in Chinese.

So the J-10 can pull Mach 2.2. G limit is 10. Umm. You know what thats crap.

Do a google search, even the Sukhoi officials admitted that the most recently produced J-11s are better than the original su-27. Reason is that China is equipping it with better radar (not as good as KLJ-3, but still better than the original Russian ones)

The Chinese did improve the J-11. But to replace the radar? I doubt it.
I was asking how the J-10 is superior to the Su-27? In range? Weapon load?
Any idea?

Things look good for mki, but the su-35 is not really in production, so we don't know what it's really going to be like.

It is in production you undeducated teenager. Check your sources. The Russians threw out the TCV upgrade but gave it the N-011 radar. Not bars but close enough. Some minor changes here and there. Su-35 upgrade is just a sin off of the S-37 which crashed. As of now there is no Su-37 airframe.

There is this thing called upgrade. You may notice that su-30mkis haven't achieved their full potentials either.

They are complete but coming improved in batches.
The J-10 is used for analising combat potential in the PLAAF right now. Those are not production varients.

JH-7A is claimed by many to be as good as su-30mkk for attacking missions. Also, su-30mk2 is good for naval attacking missions.

No it isn't. I can carry the same weapons. But when it comes to radar. Payload. and range. It out classes it. The JH-7 is underpowered.

As for FC-1, the first 50 avionics delivered to FC-1 will be using Chinese Avionics. We know that the radars put on FC-1 is definitely not as good as the one put on J-10. The reason why PAF want Western ones is because the Western ones are proven (that's pretty obvious).

Why not? Why not offer the J-10's radar. Wouldn't that give China more money and PAF a better radar?
BTW. GO to school. This topic can crap you made up doesn't belong here.

My Indian sources say the LCA is capable of MACH 3 and 20 G limits!
Believe that.

**tphuang** · 09 Sep 05,, 01:43

Originally Posted by dabrownguy

First off I did go to Chinese military sites. CDF and SDF.
As for the EF vs Su35 the EF was actually simulating a Metaor missile. Read up on it. As for Hardpoints. How does the Su-27 loose to the J-10? The Su-27 can carry 10 AAM. J-10 can only carry 6 at most. The rest are for dumb bombs. Speed. Pff. What planet are you from. And I doubt the J-10 could pull more G rates. But does it matter? The Su-27 has a higher angle of attack. I stopped believing Chinese sources like yours when they claim RED AGEIS and HQ-9 with a range of 300 km. Please post a source!

hmm, should we start to limit EF, so that it's at a disadvantage against su-35? Just where do you think su-35 should rank then? BTW, su-35 is not even finished yet, Russia is still planning changes to it (including equipping it with the missiles to be used in PAK FA). So, it's awfully ealry for some of you to say mki is better than it.

Check the other thread. And J-10 has 11 hard points. Check any source including sinodefense, it's actually one of the few things that sinodefense actually mentionned in there and got right. As for CDF and SDF, if you read some of those threads, then you might have figured out that other posters also think J-10 is better than su-27. There are Chinese sources that bs, but mainly with Chinese weapons vs Foreign weapons (rather than Chinese vs Chinese). As for Aegis, it's the Americans that compared 170/171/051C to Aegis ships.

So what does that say?

Say you are right and PLAAF will buy more J-10. Wonderfull. But did you maybe think they stopped to fill gaps in the AF? Since the Su-27 is only a air to air weapon. Perhaps PLAAF is pushing for the Su-35 upgrade.

Ever wondar why the IAF doesn't purchase 700 Su-30MKI? No it's not because they don't have the cash. Its because LCA and MRCA are needed to fill gaps of ground attack and interception. Why did you think the US bought the F-16 when the F-15 is superior. Just because PLAAF dicides to buy the J-10 doesn't make it superior to the Su-27. It even has less range and payload.

J-10 is actually not as good as su-30mkk in A2G missions. It's specialty is A2A combat. mkk/mk2 is the weapon for that. If China is filling gaps, it should be getting more mkk/mk2s. F-16 block 60 with AESA is just as good as any F-15 in air combat.

As for range, J-10's range is reported to be anywhere from 1100 KM to 1850 KM compared to 1500 KM for J-11. No one know exactly what it is. I doubt anyone has really seriously tested it out. As for payload, it's likely less than J-11, but it's still in the range of F-16s (around 7000 KG).

Trust the Indian Media.

So what about speed? The Raptor has a speed of Mach 1.6. Its energy that counts in dog fights. In BVR the Bison has the R-77. I don't see the J-8 using the SD-10 when its not complete yet. The J-8 is trash. And considering the RCS of the J-8 it'll be locked on pretty fast.

The Zhuk has less radar range. But what weapons can the J-8 carry? How many are BVR and in service compared to the 125 off Bison? But does the J-8 radar range matter when its uses a inferior R-27 missile compared to the R-77 the Bision uses.

SD-10 is complete, it has finished testing. I honestly don't know where you get your sources from. Dude, you repeated your point twice in there. I get it. R-77 is good. And also, what's the point of having R-77 when your radar range doesn't even go that far? Let's see, I'm going to hit someone that my radar can't even detect. That's an interesting thought. I'm not sure how many J-8II are in service. As for RCS, considering both planes are based on Mig-21 technogloy, I think their RCS should be in each other's ballpark. I'd love to see you provide some evidence for otherwise. So, after you called out J-8 (which I have no problem with), you can only come up with 2 areas that Bison exceeds it in (and those arguments aren't even good)? Yes J-8 is trash, but so is Bison. I consider anything below F-16A/B to be trash.

So the J-10 can pull Mach 2.2. G limit is 10. Umm. You know what thats crap.

What do you think the numbers are then? Those are pretty widely published numbers. For Mach 2.2, check this article
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/crit.../12264381.html

The Chinese did improve the J-11. But to replace the radar? I doubt it.
I was asking how the J-10 is superior to the Su-27? In range? Weapon load?
Any idea?

Yes they did, if you say that you visit CDF. Pick up any thread and start reading. Once you finish that, go search J-11 and 1474 (that's the radar it uses). It's believed that the radar is better and the assembling is done better.
If you don't take my words, check this
http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2...orts/mair1.htm
It's done in the J-11 Indigenization part

It is in production you undeducated teenager. Check your sources. The Russians threw out the TCV upgrade but gave it the N-011 radar. Not bars but close enough. Some minor changes here and there. Su-35 upgrade is just a sin off of the S-37 which crashed. As of now there is no Su-37 airframe.

Wow, now I'm really offended. You have thrown two personal attacks at me now. Do you want me to give you an idea of my educational background? I'd be glad to entertain you. Again, I read a recent article (just yesterday) that the Russians are still making changes to Su-35 (as I stated above). As for TVC, you are right about that, but su-35 might change to AL-31FM1 in the future, which would have TVC.

The J-10 is used for analising combat potential in the PLAAF right now. Those are not production varients.

Can you provide a source for this. Check http://www.kanwa.com/ckir/, in the 2005-08-20 issue, it says J-10A is starting maximum production level. If you go back a few issues to 2004 issue of Kanwa, the first production line's maximum capacity started in 2004.

No it isn't. I can carry the same weapons. But when it comes to radar. Payload. and range. It out classes it. The JH-7 is underpowered.

Why not? Why not offer the J-10's radar. Wouldn't that give China more money and PAF a better radar?
BTW. GO to school.

okay, that's the 3rd insult directed to me. You are really hurting my feelings now. Just kidding, cheers. Don't get so angry.
The JH-7A radar is actually better than the radar on su-30mkk (I know that's sad, considering JL-10A isn't that great). Again, I don't believe JH-7A is as good as su-30mkk, but some people have said it.

As for the radar, China doesn't want to give PAF its best weapons. I think that's easily understandable. F22P is a second level Frigate. JF-17 is a third level fighter. K-8 is just for poor countries.

"This topic can crap you made up doesn't belong here. " - looks like you need some help with English. It's really ironic that you have provided zero source the entire response. Thanks.

My Indian sources say the LCA is capable of MACH 3 and 20 G limits!
Believe that.

except that one poster on this board consistently mentionned that LCA is capable of MACH 1.8 and 9 g limit and has only reached mach 1.4 and 5 g in tests. Even the non-Chinese sources are putting j-10 at mach 2.0 and 10 g. I don't see your point. I have definitely read a tonne more about j-10 than you have.

**dabrownguy** · 09 Sep 05,, 07:48

hmm, should we start to limit EF, so that it's at a disadvantage against su-35? Just where do you think su-35 should rank then? BTW, su-35 is not even finished yet, Russia is still planning changes to it (including equipping it with the missiles to be used in PAK FA). So, it's awfully ealry for some of you to say mki is better than it.

What do I need to say to you that the Su-35 is in service with teh Russians. The Su-35 is and upgrade for the Su-27. It has almost everything the Su-37 prototype had. It is finished. Further work is always going on. The MKI is being developed even further.

Check the other thread. And J-10 has 11 hard points. Check any source including sinodefense, it's actually one of the few things that sinodefense actually mentionned in there and got right. As for CDF and SDF, if you read some of those threads, then you might have figured out that other posters also think J-10 is better than su-27. There are Chinese sources that bs, but mainly with Chinese weapons vs Foreign weapons (rather than Chinese vs Chinese). As for Aegis, it's the Americans that compared 170/171/051C to Aegis ships.

You are a fool. The J-10 has 6 hardpoints that are "wet". Those hardpoints are the only ones that can use air to air weapons. The Su-27 uses all the hardpoints for air to air. Meaning the Su-27 can carry 10 air to air weapons.

Shut up. The J-10 has 4 hardpoints that are either for PODS or dumb-bombs. Those 4 hardpoints are too tight and close to the middle hardpoint to be equiped with air to airweapons, not to mention to small.

It's specialty is A2A combat.

No its not. The specialty is multi-role. Airtoair,air to ground. If the J-10 is a air superiority fighter it would have more air to air harpoints like the MiG-29 or the Su-27.

F-16 block 60 with AESA is just as good as any F-15 in air combat.

Corrections. The F-15K is better. It too is superiot in terms of air to air, and air to ground.

As for range, J-10's range is reported to be anywhere from 1100 KM to 1850 KM compared to 1500 KM for J-11. No one know exactly what it is. I doubt anyone has really seriously tested it out

Thats because theres no officail source.

As for payload, it's likely less than J-11, but it's still in the range of F-16s (around 7000 KG).

It is less than the J-11. Less than the F-16. The F-16 has a more powerfull engine and is a stronger structure. Given the engine. Not more than 5000 kg.

SD-10 is complete, it has finished testing. I honestly don't know where you get your sources from. Dude, you repeated your point twice in there. I get it. R-77 is good. And also, what's the point of having R-77 when your radar range doesn't even go that far? Let's see, I'm going to hit someone that my radar can't even detect.

Ever heard of datalinking? The Su-30MKI highlights the target and the R-77 is fired from the Bison.

That's an interesting thought. I'm not sure how many J-8II are in service. As for RCS, considering both planes are based on Mig-21 technogloy, I think their RCS should be in each other's ballpark. I'd love to see you provide some evidence for otherwise.

So? One is a lot bigger. The j-8 is just a bigger J-7. The RCS is obvously bigger. Do you even know what i'm talking about?

Yes J-8 is trash, but so is Bison. I consider anything below F-16A/B to be trash.

Yea but Bison is better than J-8 and still comparable to F-16A/B. That early block isn't BVR capable. The Bison employs the same EW suite the MKI employs.
I find it hard to believe it. It isn't officail. This like the time some one faked news of PLAN sinking an IN sub. Give me a english source. Give me a real source. Give me math atleast.

Yes they did, if you say that you visit CDF. Pick up any thread and start reading. Once you finish that, go search J-11 and 1474 (that's the radar it uses). It's believed that the radar is better and the assembling is done better.
If you don't take my words, check this
http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/...ports/mair1.htm
It's done in the J-11 Indigenization part

The radar? the J-11 has a superior radar to the J-10 radar. States sinodefence. Now. Why would sinodefence.com claim China is working on a multi-role J-11B? Because it is in the works. BTW give me the actuall radar specs. Range is not everything.

Wow, now I'm really offended. You have thrown two personal attacks at me now. Do you want me to give you an idea of my educational background? I'd be glad to entertain you. Again, I read a recent article (just yesterday) that the Russians are still making changes to Su-35 (as I stated above). As for TVC, you are right about that, but su-35 might change to AL-31FM1 in the future, which would have TVC.

The complete upgrade is with TVC. The Russian AF didn't want it because of the mantianence. They are always working on new technology. So what is your point?

Can you provide a source for this. Check http://www.kanwa.com/ckir/, in the 2005-08-20 issue, it says J-10A is starting maximum production level. If you go back a few issues to 2004 issue of Kanwa, the first production line's maximum capacity started in 2004.

Thats a light production batch with Russian engines. If anything China is waiting for a indignous engine.

The JH-7A radar is actually better than the radar on su-30mkk (I know that's sad, considering JL-10A isn't that great). Again, I don't believe JH-7A is as good as su-30mkk, but some people have said it.

People say a lot of things. How is the radar superior. Do you have specs or do I have to trust your view. Your already wrong on everything you've said. You've had countless baseless arguements.

As for the radar, China doesn't want to give PAF its best weapons. I think that's easily understandable. F22P is a second level Frigate. JF-17 is a third level fighter. K-8 is just for poor countries.

What?? Best weapons. The US is offering F-16BL50. China is embarassed to give out the J-10 which isn't even on par?

looks like you need some help with English. It's really ironic that you have provided zero source the entire response. Thanks.

My sources are good. Check the specs and everything i've said. You have provided nothing but lies.

except that one poster on this board consistently mentionned that LCA is capable of MACH 1.8 and 9 g limit and has only reached mach 1.4 and 5 g in tests.

Yes. Why not. Thats reasonable considering that most aircraft do reach these limits. If the F-18 can reach Mach 2 the much lighter LCA with a single engine can reach mach 1.8. That is the goal. The other is to have G limits of 9. You state unbelieve things How is it that you don't understand testing?

Even the non-Chinese sources are putting j-10 at mach 2.0 and 10 g. I don't see your point. I have definitely read a tonne more about j-10 than you have.

From sources that speculate. Read up other aircraft. Compare it to J-10.

**dabrownguy** · 09 Sep 05,, 08:07

BTW read this topic. He seems more reliable and honest then your pointless boasting.
http://pakistanidefenceforum.com/ind...howtopic=48599

**kargal** · 09 Sep 05,, 23:15

Originally Posted by DalerMehndi

kargal, go back to pakistanidefenceforum.com and learn english before making another post.

I think your 5HT level is getting higher and have a problem of indigestion about the facts. I am only answering about some Indian immature member are talking. Grow up kidow and don't support others, come back in real world of peace and harmony not a machoismo.