Thread: F-22 vs. Su-37 who would win

I doubt the F-35 will get cancelled... especially with so many countries already on board...

Originally Posted by Tronic

I doubt the F-35 will get cancelled... especially with so many countries already on board...

At a reported $130 million per and climbing, the F-35B could be cancelled. It's a realistic possibility.

If it gets cancelled, the unit price on the A/C immediately ballon into the stratosphere cause all the F-35B sunk costs have to be absorbed by the other two models.

Which will cause a unit reduction(by everyone) cause you can only afford what you are budgeted. And when that unit reduction kicks in up goes the price again.

Until a B-2 bomber costs $2bn a piece or a F-22 is $360 per.

Same thing happened to Commanche- the US armys long stated #1 priority. Just got to expensive.

Zap.

No more commanche.

Originally Posted by Tronic

canoe, you have not read the previous posts have you... the importance of stealth and manuverability have already been discussed before... and I would also like to ask you, what radar and weapon systems does the Su-37 use... I mean you are claiming that the F22 outshines the Su-37 in this field, but could you please enlighten me on the radar and weapon systems of the Su-37... and also what attributes make you think that the Su-37 is a 3rd or 4th gen. fighter??? you have merely posted your opinion rather then statistics...

First off I can't post statistics for something that doesn't exist. Nore did I go reading through this whole thread given I find the topic somewhat rediculus.

The Su-37 prototypes to my knowledge carried no weapons nore radar. However if it were made into a production line fighter it would obviously be equipped. The only fighter it could be compared to would be the Su-30 MKI which in its latest model carries a N011M Phased Array radar. Avonics wise is a bit of a mixed bag the Su-30 MKI's use foriegn avonics (Isreal, France, South Africa and India) which are not to bad but still not comparible with the central intrigrated system on the F22.

If you want I can compare it to a fighter carrying exlusively Russian avonics but it will infact end up making the Su-30 worse not better.

Also I'm sure you aware most of the actual stats on the F-22's systems are classified and therefor will not be posted on this board. However by comparing the equipped technoligy one can arrive at certain reasonable estimations.

The reason I think the Su-37 is a product of 3rd/4th gen fighter goals is at the time one of the major design goals was to make your bird faster and more manuoverable then the other guys fighter. Which the Su-37 was clearly aiming for. That goal still exists fo 5th gen fighters but its being offset by other requirements (stealth, electronics and better sensors) which is evident in the F-22 and Eurofighters design.

Purely Russian sucks because Russian Govt wont let russian companies use COTS for own equipment but only for export, so result is Russian processors rely on older gen Russian chips (for the most part) and hence lag behind contemporaries. Also why Russian eqpt is much heavier (on average). They tend to use multiple processing units for their phased array sets, as compared to one massive COTS derived processing bank like the Raptor has!

The Su-37 is dead. What exists is the Su-35, with Irbis radar, with claimed range in tests of 400 km against 3 square mtr RCS.

Its not good enough against 0.005 mtr sq Raptor

Even AWACs isnt good enough

Dunno about critics but Raptor is fait accompli to most of the worlds fighter fleet + even AWACs which rely on X, S, L band etc

Originally Posted by Tronic

well, I was just trying to elaborate his point... I don't have much knowledge of radars which track air disturbance ...

Well then.

the one anti-stealth radar made or claimed to be made is that the radar emits rays against a background and whichever rays get absorbed or deflected means you have a black area in your map and that is where to look for the stealth aircraft such a radar would be too costly for many nations to develop as it would probably require sattelite assistance to map the "background" for the Radar...

Yes, certainly doesn't sound like it can be done from below.

And it's one thing to detect them, another to track and get a lock.

no myfriend... An airplane capable of doing a 90 degree turn in a split second is manuverability...

Not 'relevant' manoeuverability.

an aircraft capable of turning 360 degrees on a 0 radius is manuverability...

I've seen that manoeuvre being performed in F-15s and its only possible if you're starting with a high airspeed.

I have not seen any Sukhoi do it. Only the Pugachev Cobra and another which I definitely know the F-22 can do.

and like you said... "If you can turn tighter than the other guy," well my friend, read about the Sukhoi planes especially the Su-30... they are all about "turning tighter then the other guy"...

You cite airshow tricks as proof of this?

but then again i'm not saying that the F22 can't do a 360 degrees on a 0 radius but i'm not saying it can either... we still have to see such a move from the F22... but then again, Sukhoi was the first one to introduce TVC and the F22 is the first American plane I know of that has TVC...

Certainly the technology has existed since the '80s in the F-15 ACTIVE, but the F-22A is the first one to have it operation

the Su-30 outmanuvers all American planes that are in service right now... maybe the F22 can change that...

The F-22A IS in service.

In fact, I think they're being deployed to Alaska as we speak.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article1812.html

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

Yes, certainly doesn't sound like it can be done from below.

And it's one thing to detect them, another to track and get a lock.

once you can detect the thing, i'm sure technology to lock on will eventually arrive... it is not that it is impossible to detect stealth... you just need to pump massive amounts of money into such a radar project which probably no other country can offord right now...

Not 'relevant' manoeuverability.

and why not?

I've seen that manoeuvre being performed in F-15s and its only possible if you're starting with a high airspeed.

ok, now this is getting silly... an F-15 capable of doing that??? I don't think so... such a manuver is only possible because of TVC... and F-15 in no way can do this... maybe you misunderstood me... i'm talking about a 360 degree rotation which is not possible on a F-15... lol, F-15 doing such a stunt... it even sounds funny...

I have not seen any Sukhoi do it. Only the Pugachev Cobra and another which I definitely know the F-22 can do.

You cite airshow tricks as proof of this?

I didn't cite anything... I'm saying, if a plane can pull out manuvers like the Cobra, Bell and Kulbit, it is because of the plane's manuverability, regardless if these manuvers look good in airshows or not...

Certainly the technology has existed since the '80s in the F-15 ACTIVE, but the F-22A is the first one to have it operation

no, the Su-30 is the first one to have it in operation... and yes I do agree that this technology existed late in the 70's when the Russians first modified one of the Su-27's with one engine being TVC, the other normal...

The F-22A IS in service.

In fact, I think they're being deployed to Alaska as we speak.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article1812.html

so they enetered service huh? lucky pilots...

Originally Posted by Tronic

once you can detect the thing, i'm sure technology to lock on will eventually arrive... it is not that it is impossible to detect stealth... you just need to pump massive amounts of money into such a radar project which probably no other country can offord right now...

...I'll be waiting.

and why not?

Are the abilities to perform airshow manoeuvres - in which the pilot has as much time as he likes to set it up - necessarily the same to perform well in combat, specifically WVR gunfights?

ok, now this is getting silly... an F-15 capable of doing that??? I don't think so...

If I was lying, then I'd say the F-15 could do something a hell of a lot more impressive than a silly little airshow trick.

such a manuver is only possible because of TVC...

That's got to be some very flexible TVC.

and F-15 in no way can do this... maybe you misunderstood me...

The video I saw depicted an F-15 do it. Pretty difficult to misinterpret.

i'm talking about a 360 degree rotation which is not possible on a F-15... lol, F-15 doing such a stunt... it even sounds funny...

Most of what you say sounds like the hoary old clichs of desperate Russian sales brochures. Look

I could always pull the 105:0 kill record of the F-15 and the 87:0 record of the F-16... but I'll spare you.

I didn't cite anything... I'm saying, if a plane can pull out manuvers like the Cobra, Bell and Kulbit, it is because of the plane's manuverability, regardless if these manuvers look good in airshows or not...

Answered before.

no, the Su-30 is the first one to have it in operation... and yes I do agree that this technology existed late in the 70's when the Russians first modified one of the Su-27's with one engine being TVC, the other normal...

One engine TVC, one normal? Sounds like a recipe for a winner (!)

Alright, suppose the Russians got there first. That doesn't change the fact that:

so they enetered service huh? lucky pilots...

And Sukhois thus don't stand much of a realistic chance.

also... the Cobra...


not substitute the enemy plane as a missile tailing you... all of a sudden, the Cobra manuver becomes mighty useful...

and the Kulbit...



and also the Hook manuver is the fight winner manuver that probably any pilots on this board will be aware... and the Sukhoi can derive the Hook from the Cobra, making it one lethal move...

and... the Cobra manuver was never claimed by the Russians as a combat manuver!!! it is only considered a combat manuver by Nato/Western nations...

oh and lol... a F-15 doing a Kulbit... i'm still having a laugh over that...

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

And Sukhois thus don't stand much of a realistic chance.

ofcourse they don't... for you any plane to stand a chance has to be developed by America or they don't stand a chance... I believe you probably saw the Cessna outmanuvering Sukhoi as well didn't you...

Er, how can that diagram so easily predict the path of the enemy fighter?

Are they relying on him being a predictable sheep?

And how the hell is such a tail-slide, or a cobra, or a kulbit going to save you from a 90G missile such as the AIM-9X? Or the 50Gs+ odd of an AMRAAM? It's probably going to help the missile by slowing the plane's airspeed, making him a stationary target. Thanks!

This stuff is of questionable utility in WVR and of no utility in BVR.

The F-15 definitely performed a kulbit - flying in a straight line but pushing its AoA all the way through 0 to 360. Again, why would I lie?

Originally Posted by Tronic

ofcourse they don't... for you any plane to stand a chance has to be developed by America or they don't stand a chance...

I'm fairly confident the EF2000 could also defeat it.

But thanks for your stupid psychoanalysis. You lose.

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

One engine TVC, one normal? Sounds like a recipe for a winner (!)

it was to experiment with TVC... do you actually think they put these birds in service with one engine TVC... lmao...

Originally Posted by Tronic

it was to experiment with TVC... do you actually think they put these birds in service with one engine TVC... lmao...

Still not quite as good as the fully fledged F-15 ACTIVE, is it.

And if you want to talk about all thrust-vectoring technology, not just that used for manoeuvering, I could just mention the Hawker-Siddeley Harrier.

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

Er, how can that diagram so easily predict the path of the enemy fighter?

Are they relying on him being a predictable sheep?

that diagram shows an aircraft tailing your ass... but I suppose you're right... the aircraft will prbably do some aerobatics while tailing you to show he's not a predictable sheep...

And how the hell is such a tail-slide, or a cobra, or a kulbit going to save you from a 90G missile such as the AIM-9X? Or the 50Gs+ odd of an AMRAAM? It's probably going to help the missile by slowing the plane's airspeed, making him a stationary target. Thanks!

It's not going to save you... it will defenitely make you have the first shot... excluding BVR fighting...

The F-15 definitely performed a kulbit - flying in a straight line but pushing it AoA all the way through. Again, why would I lie?

lol... yes, sure it did bro.. whatever you say.. and I saw a Harrier performing a Kulbit too!!!