Thread: F-22 vs. Su-37 who would win

Originally Posted by Vadim

It is common to see in this discussion the Raptor's "Stealth Advantage", that was designed what 20 years ago?

Lots of military equipment in the world was designed 20 years ago, for the simple reason that it takes a minimum amount of time to design.

Hmm, the Russian radar systems only joke about them now. Every aircraft creates a vortex behind it as the air is unbalanced, again could be picked up by new radar.

I'm no aerodynamicist, but we're not talking about large cargo planes, here.

Su 37 comes with FAR superior missiles with thrust vectoring that F22 with its extremely poor manuverability has no chance of avoiding.

...No fighter today has any serious chance of dodging the best missiles in most flight profiles. And the F-22A can pull 11 Gs, if you didn't know already. Damn good.

The Su 37 is THE most manuvarable fighter plane in the world.

Is your Su-37 good enough to outmanoeuvre today's US missiles such as the AIM-120C/D and AIM-9X, capable of pulling between 50 and 90 Gs?

I would NOT like to be the pilot in that!

I'm sorry but 1980's stealth technolgy does not compete with today's radar and that is what killed the Raptor.

1) Lovely use of the past tense?
2) It hasn't entered combat yet, though it has defeated F-15s while being ridiculously outnumbered (5:1 and 33:8, if I remember correctly) without any losses in those two training engagements.

They concentrated so much on making it stealth, they completely sacrificed what it could do in the air.

11 Gs, Mach 1.8 supercruise, Mach 2.4+ top speed... not bad.

The Su 37, knowing its got full radar support

AWACS? How will that always be there for the Su-37's user?

has the ability to out turn, out power (with its superior engines) and outgun the Raptor anyday.

The Raptor's engines probably produce in excess of 80,000 lbs of thrust.

As for a gun - I'll take that literally - it's true that Russian aircraft cannons are generally higher-calibre, but also have much smaller magazines.

As for missiles... well you have to detect the Raptor, won't you?

With the limited Who said the Raptor was the best aircraft for all weather? total rubbish.

Name a better one and why.

It is also probably true these two machines will never meet head to head

Very true, even lurker says there will never be an Su-37.

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

I'm no aerodynamicist, but we're not talking about large cargo planes, here.

Even then there is an air disturbance. Do you feel an air wave as the truck passes by you at a high speed?

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

And the F-22A can pull 11 Gs, if you didn't know already. Damn good.

Capability of handling high G's and manuverablity are two different things. Russian planes are the only ones capable of performing such maneuver as Cobra.

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

AWACS? How will that always be there for the Su-37's user?

And what's without the AWACS? AWACS seems to be the weak point of the whole thing. These will be the primary targets in a real combat situation.

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

The Raptor's engines probably produce in excess of 80,000 lbs of thrust.

Su30 and his successors, including Su37 are the only planes in the world, capable of taking of the sea carrier without any boosters or catapults.

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

As for missiles... well you have to detect the Raptor, won't you?

Ahem, ain't Mig 21 in Serbia detected F117?

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

Very true, even lurker says there will never be an Su-37.

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~junap95/fighters/su37.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...u37/su372.html
Ain't it the one in the flesh?

Originally Posted by _Lynx

Even then there is an air disturbance. Do you feel an air wave as the truck passes by you at a high speed?

...Enough to be detected by radar?

A truck is also a lot less aerodynamic than a fighter plane.

Capability of handling high G's and manuverablity are two different things. Russian planes are the only ones capable of performing such maneuver as Cobra.

That's not manoeuverability, that's an airshow trick.

And what's without the AWACS? AWACS seems to be the weak point of the whole thing. These will be the primary targets in a real combat situation.

I didn't understand what he meant by 'radar support'.

Su30 and his successors, including Su37 are the only planes in the world, capable of taking of the sea carrier without any boosters or catapults.

Excuse me, ever heard of the Harrier, or even the Yak-38?

But that's understandable, Russia can't really afford carriers with catapults...

Ahem, ain't Mig 21 in Serbia detected F117?

I don't know about detection by -21s but the F-117 was shot down by at SA-3 - fourteenth time lucky - after having overflown the same spot several nights in a row.

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~junap95/fighters/su37.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...u37/su372.html
Ain't it the one in the flesh?

Only a Prototype?

Originally Posted by Tronic

well... sure a truck might not be aerodynamic but do you think airplanes fly at the same speed a truck drives??? aircraft fly much faster and hence the air disturbance is far greater...

And enough to be detected by radar? In any event the 'truck' comparison is poor. Just because I can feel it in my face, doesn't mean it'll be detected on radar.

Airshow tricks like that can only be carried out by planes that have good manuverability...

No, airshow tricks like that can be performed with jets with the suitable aerodynamic characteristics, which may or not also give manoeuverability.

When talking about fighter jets and their combat performance, talking about airshow tricks is childish to say the least.

If you can turn tighter than the other guy, then I'll be interested.

I think he was talking about non-VTOL/STOL aircraft...

I don't think he specified that.

And the Admiral Kuznetsov still has a ramp.

It's indicative of the state of Russian aviation when people refer to airshow tricks and ability to take off a crap carrier, and people don't talk about combat capabilities, logistics, quantities, etc.

How many Sukhois are flying off Russian carriers? Sorry, their one carrier which is afraid to go beyond the Barents Sea?

Id have to give it to the one and only...

Raptor

Originally Posted by _Lynx

Capability of handling high G's and manuverablity are two different things. Russian planes are the only ones capable of performing such maneuver as Cobra.

Wrong. The F-22 has already shown that it can perform this maneuver. It has also been rumored that the teen fighters can preform this move with modification to their FCS.

And what's without the AWACS? AWACS seems to be the weak point of the whole thing. These will be the primary targets in a real combat situation.

Wrong again.

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~junap95/fighters/su37.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/p...u37/su372.html
Ain't it the one in the flesh?

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's still flying or operational.

F/A 22 hands down.

END OF DISCUSSION

This has to be one of the dumbest thread I've ever posted in.

The SU-37 is a tech demonstrator, the same deal as the U.S X series planes.
Even hypothetically if the SU-37 was put into service its a product of 3rd and 4th generation fighter development goals.

Against an F-22 there simply would be no competition. The F-22 has far superior radar and weapon systems. It also is extremely difficult to detect on radar giving it air dominance for all air to air engagements. Being able to perform fancy turns and rolls won't help you when your engaging a stealthed 5th gen fighter that specificly designed to indentify, engage and rapidly kill multiple airborne targets BVR.

The Russians bet on super maneuverability as the key acheivement for the current generation of fighters. And guess what they bet wrong, and much to their credit they've realised it and have moved on. There working on the PAK-FA and other westernized design types now that incorperate cost effective stealth and put more emphesis on more modern avionics.

The Su-37 is not nore will it likely ever be a produced fighter.

The Superbug Block III would be a formidable plane. Increased thrust of 25% to 55,000 pounds, more low observable tech, AESA, and some other stuff. And still around 55 million a copy.

Even Block II with AESA meant for India would be the premier strike fighter in Asia, with perhaps only the F-15SG superior (but more expensive).

Now if only they could redesign for the Superbug a more swept, bigger, more delta-ish wing (quite impossible with current budget I know) for higher speed, more range, and even better nose turning ability in one circle fight than it can now, and also modify the LERX in relation to reduce drag. It would be very dangerous.

But then the USN chose the simplest cheapest option for the Superbug to save money.