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About LinkBacksOh baby the KooLAiD drinkin' is going on in full force tonight...
LOL.
Some guys for Fighter mafia say that Raptor and JSF are wasted money.
They say that USAF could get better F-15 and F-16, and USN F-18 and Harriers.
There are some words that stealth could be detect by EuroFighter special device, anyone knows more about it?
Stealth planes on radars:
F-22= 1/2 JSF= B-2= 2 F-117
P.S. In my country we have parts of one invisible plane, it became visible for Soviet 40 year old radar, and we hit one or two more, this is reson for grounding all F-117 in 1999, after hiting two more (one land in croatia, second crash) First is in our museum of Aircrafts.
Oh baby the KooLAiD drinkin' is going on in full force tonight...
LOL.
Wow, you have parts of an F-117 after it had flown over your country probably hundreds of times before being detected.Originally Posted by SRB
Some guys for Fighter mafia say that Raptor and JSF are wasted money.
They say that USAF could get better F-15 and F-16, and USN F-18 and Harriers.
There are some words that stealth could be detect by EuroFighter special device, anyone knows more about it?
Stealth planes on radars:
F-22= 1/2 JSF= B-2= 2 F-117
P.S. In my country we have parts of one invisible plane, it became visible for Soviet 40 year old radar
Also, please refrain from your simplified stealth equations and quoting anything from those idiots in the fighter mafia, thank you. Spreading false information is not this board's goal.
You should have looked closer. I have not once seen the Flanker series hover for over 10 seconds at zero airspeed and under high-Alpha conditions. It can also pull off those barrel rolls at 60 AoA which the Flankers also cannot do. We haven't seen an official demo yet so just think of it as a way of the USAF showing off a little. Combining stealth with a very large flight envelope is not easy to do.
Bombing begin 24. March 1999 around 20.00 . First F-117 was hit and crash on 27 March 1999. Second and third I dont know when.Wow, you have parts of an F-117 after it had flown over your country probably hundreds of times before being detected.
Also, please refrain from your simplified stealth equations and quoting anything from those idiots in the fighter mafia, thank you. Spreading false information is not this board's goal.
So it could tree mission by plane, so if there were 10 planes in action it could be 30 missions best.And when you look what systems we use you would cry (Isayev S-125 'Neva-M' old russian radars migs without radars and AA missiles).
I dont know if fighter mafia members are fools, but if you look theirs arguments I think they are right.
F-22 is war to expencive for today's wars and future wars. US are fighting war against states that doesnt even have air force (Grenada, Panama, Avganistan, Iraq 2003) What is role for F-22 or JSF which F-15 and F-16 couldnt do against this states?
Evaluates I give aren't from fighter mafia. Evaluates are ok for me.
Last edited by SRB; 04 Jun 06, at 01:28.
The fighter mafia has been against big fighters since the beginning. If it was up to them, the F-15 would not exist. Of course they didn't forsee that the F-15 would be undefeated in air to air combat. Upgraded planes can do but so much. The airframes are still old and stressed especially after combat. There are new innovations and ways of thinking that sometimes can't be incorporated into older airframes. Also, we don't know what future wars will look like. The F-22 and JSF give the US an amazing advantage not just a good one.
The F-117 dicussion has been talked about over and over again. It was a lapse in planning combined with a lucky shot. If the USAF had moved the flight paths around, they would have avoided the whole problem.
If USA plan war against whole world in close future than there is reason for F-22
Well They must find some excuse for lost of F-117
Even in the end if it was planing bug, my country is first country with stealh trophy
P.S. US could build new F-15 because of old airframes.
Yea, they could build new F-15s but when you've had it's replacement coming since the 1980's, why keep it? The F-22 is now being adapted to other roles such as electronic warfare, SEAD, and precision ground attack. It can do much more than what the program required of it.If USA plan war against whole world in close future than there is reason for F-22
Well They must find some excuse for lost of F-117
Even in the end if it was planing bug, my country is first country with stealh trophy
P.S. US could build new F-15 because of old airframes.
Because F-22 cost to much and I dont see how it could pay off.
You are aware it has like a gillion:1 kill ratio in simulated air combat against other US fighters so far, right?
So far only a single F-16 and a single F-18F have managed 1 gun kill each. That's it.
I have no idea how many legacy 'teen' series fighters Raptors have "shot down" in that same time span, but it is well into the hundreds.
Nothing on earth can touch the Raptor right now. It is a total overmatch for every threat either flying, or projected for the forseeable future. It will turn circles around ANYTHING. It has the highest sustained G capability of any aircraft ever fielded. It will outaccelerate, out climb, out dive, and out AoA ANY fixed wing combat aircraft ever put into service by any nation ever. It has longer range than ANY fighter in history. It has a cruising speed almost TWICE as fast as any known threat aircraft. It has an RCS 10x smaller than the next closest combat aircraft in current service ANYWHERE in the world.
It has sensor fusion and data processing several ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than any other jet in service(including US service). Short of the F-14D/AIM-54 or Mig-31/AA-9 it has the longest operational BVR engagement range of all time.
Of course it costs a lot. But you get what you pay for.
According to the above list, with the F-22........you get a lot.
Vadim's gone and now SRB is here to continue this useless arguement. That one F-117 which got lost had a ridiculous flight plan, flying the exact same path for half a week, had left it's bomb bays open, got wet in rain, and had 2 dozen missiles fired randomly in where it was thought to be, without guidance. An F-16C mock shot down an F-22 in an exercise in what can't be called a real kill. The exercise was over and they were all heading back to base when one Viper jokingly fired upon an F-22, so it can't be counted as a real kill.
The only real exercise kill of an F-22 was when that F/A-18F shot a Raptor down while it was in a defensive position with a rookie against an ace. What the Raptor should have done before the F-18 got into gun firing position was disengage and supercruise to BVR until the F-18 lost him, fly a circle around the F-18, re-engage when he's in a better position, and pummel the bug.
A Raptor can easily destroy over 10 Su-35s in a single mission. 6 get destroyed from BVR with AMRAAMs and stealth, 2 from just WVR with the AIM-9x, and the rest with guns by popping up once, destroying one Sukhoi, leaving when the others try to attack, coming back from somewhere else and suddenly destroying another one, leaving again, and so on until there are no targets left or no gun rounds left. It's very easy when you have the advantages of supercruise and stealth, to come by surprise and leave at will whenever you want to and yet never be found, like a phantom(I don't mean the F-4!). If a Flanker's flyaway cost is anything more than 34 million USD, the F-22 does give you enough bang for buck to make up for it's huge costs.
You are aware it has like a gillion:1 kill ratio in simulated air combat against other US fighters so far, right?
So far only a single F-16 and a single F-18F have managed 1 gun kill each. That's it.
I have no idea how many legacy 'teen' series fighters Raptors have "shot down" in that same time span, but it is well into the hundreds.
Nothing on earth can touch the Raptor right now. It is a total overmatch for every threat either flying, or projected for the forseeable future. It will turn circles around ANYTHING. It has the highest sustained G capability of any aircraft ever fielded. It will outaccelerate, out climb, out dive, and out AoA ANY fixed wing combat aircraft ever put into service by any nation ever. It has longer range than ANY fighter in history. It has a cruising speed almost TWICE as fast as any known threat aircraft. It has an RCS 10x smaller than the next closest combat aircraft in current service ANYWHERE in the world.
It has sensor fusion and data processing several ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than any other jet in service(including US service). Short of the F-14D/AIM-54 or Mig-31/AA-9 it has the longest operational BVR engagement range of all time.
Of course it costs a lot. But you get what you pay for.
According to the above list, with the F-22........you get a lot.
Not to knock the F-22, because you must have noticed by now that I am a huge fan, but there is the problem of surface area you get when you only have 180 of the damn things. I guess the USAF will have to be picky about when and where they deploy the Raptor, I forsee it being their ace-in-the-hole to trash enemy Air Forces at the key point of the conflict. Otherwise, using them for air support in an operation like Enduring Freedom would just be overkill. Massive overkill.
But woe-be-tide the PLA-AF if they choose to invade Taiwan when they're still relying on a few hundred Flankers as their backbone.
Try reading the 'location' section on my sidebar man. If anything, this forum is full of Indians and Pakistanis.
I'll be stunned if the USAF does not end up with at least 300 Raptors before production ends(whenever that will be).
Remember, there is NO SHOT of any kind of top-end heavy stealth fighter ANY TIME SOON besides raptor, so there will be a lot of very sensible pressure to keep that line open for as long as is humanly possible. Even if at just a trickle- say a half dozen jets a year- once the original orders are filled.
The USAF did that for boeing for years by buying a trickle of F-15Es. Had that not been done Boeing would not be in the position to be selling advanced Eagle derivitaves today, or at least- NOT for the prices it does(which are quite frankly- a total steal).
Dont forget Lockheed said that SR-71 is stealh back in 60'.
F-22 need great marketing because of big price, as I read with R&D it cost over 300 milion. No way USAF would buy more than 200 F-22.
It is great plane on paper but dont belive in everything what lockheed and F-22 loby say.
I am cautious about new weapons.
You dont understand me, why US need F-22 when F-15 is better then any other plane (USAF is contiue saing that F-15 is best fighter in world).I still belive that your country dont need F-22 even in far future.Build new F-15 with better radar, vector supercruise engines, with better missiles...It would cost fraction of F-22 program and put F-22 on frezze for far future if ever you need it.
Also there wouldnt be war with China (I doubt that it war would ever happend because China and US economy ties are strongest in world, rich people in both countries wouldnt alow that it is bad for thier money
until China build big stockpile of ICBM capable to reach US East coast, I mean what would happed if Chinese capture Taiwan wouldnt US use thier nuclear domination over China in near future.
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