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Thread: F-22 vs. Su-37 who would win

  1. #166
    Military Professional canoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCSVT
    I would just ignore Vadim. His fisrt 2 posts on this forum have been filled with anti-Raptor nonsense that everyone knows is not true.

    Also, I agree with the Canoe on the defeat of the Cobra manuever. The F-22 will go vertical quicker and faster than the Su-37 or it can utilize it's ability for constant high AoA. The F-22 could do the "helicopter" and slow down to almost zero airspeed all while pointing it's nose at the Su-37 when it's performing the Cobra, following it wherever it goes.

    Of course this would not be the best thing to do.
    Well if I was in an F-22 that senario wouldn't happen. Soon as I indentified the hostile on radar I'd close in and fire a couple AIM-120's off at the edge of the NEZ and break off. The Su-37's warning would be a couple of inbound missiles showing on his radar giving him a few seconds to decide what to do.

  2. #167
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    Quote:
    * Current Russian fighters are already on par with America’s best fighter, the F-15. Europe's and Russia's newest class of fighters will surpass the F-15; they are set to roll off production lines by 2005
    * At least three foreign aircraft threaten to surpass the F-15’s performance in the near future: the French Rafale, the Eurofighter 2000 and the Russian Su-35. Some foreign aircraft are already at parity with the F-15
    * Nations are already denying America access to airspace around the globe by obtaining low-cost, but sophisticated, surface-to-air missile systems
    * Highly capable surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems pose a formidable challenge to the F-15’s survivability. Advanced SAM systems, because of their relatively low cost, are a quick and easy way for countries to modernize their air defense systems
    * Estimated twenty-one countries will possess the most advanced systems by 2005


    Is someone forgetting that the F-15 is 30 year old technology?

  3. #168
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    The raptor is stealth. The F-22 would win. Because unfortunately as the enemies of the U.S have already found, if you can't track it, you can't shoot it down unless you have a visual lock which is a joke.

  4. #169
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
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    From what orifice was this 'quote' pulled from?

    Quote Originally Posted by samardza
    Quote:
    * Current Russian fighters are already on par with America’s best fighter, the F-15. Europe's and Russia's newest class of fighters will surpass the F-15; they are set to roll off production lines by 2005
    The latest Su-30MKI is probably on a par with the F-15.

    But a fully upgraded F-15X (for want of a better designation) would easily outperform it.

    But I remind you that the F-15 is not America's best fighter.

    * At least three foreign aircraft threaten to surpass the F-15’s performance in the near future: the French Rafale, the Eurofighter 2000 and the Russian Su-35. Some foreign aircraft are already at parity with the F-15
    In some roles, yes. In some no. Just hope that they don't upgrade it to an 'ultimate' version.

    * Nations are already denying America access to airspace around the globe by obtaining low-cost, but sophisticated, surface-to-air missile systems
    * Highly capable surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems pose a formidable challenge to the F-15’s survivability. Advanced SAM systems, because of their relatively low cost, are a quick and easy way for countries to modernize their air defense systems
    What, like Iraq in 1991? The densest air defence system in the world?

    Is someone forgetting that the F-15 is 30 year old technology?
    So is the Sukhoi Su-27 and all its derivatives.

    Is someone forgetting the existence of the F-22A?

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    What, like Iraq in 1991? The densest air defence system in the world?
    They weren't and never were even before. Most of their Airforce needed much more structuring after being badly damaged with their war with Iran.

  6. #171
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
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    Sorry, I was referring specifically to SAM systems.

    Iraq had about 16,000 missiles at the beginning, I believe.

    The Soviet Union had more but was obviously a lot larger.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by canoe
    My beef with that diagram is why is the ememy plane flying level after the Sukhoi goes vertical. If I were the pilot I'd either follow it in the vertical climb and lay on the guns as the Sukhoi loses speed or break into a side loop and come retaining most of my energy behind the Sukhoi when it levels out from a near standstill.
    My beef with that chart is that it's ridiculous.

    ANY A/C can do a tailslide.

    Yes, that's ANY A/C. The other term for 'tailslide' is stall, and fellas, that AINT good!

  8. #173
    Senior Contributor Archer's Avatar
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    Why does this thread exist? The comparison itself is ridiculous, and unfair to the Su-37.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer
    Why does this thread exist?
    Because some people like to drag out the issue and pretend the Su-37 is the greatest figter because it can do the Cobra and Kulbit all while using rear-firing misiles.

  10. #175
    Senior Contributor Archer's Avatar
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    The rear firing missiles are a paper weapon for now- they were never implemented on any production fighter. And they are WVR, fat use they'd be against a Mach 4+ BVR Aim-120 D.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by samardza
    Quote:
    * Current Russian fighters are already on par with America’s best fighter, the F-15. Europe's and Russia's newest class of fighters will surpass the F-15; they are set to roll off production lines by 2005
    * At least three foreign aircraft threaten to surpass the F-15’s performance in the near future: the French Rafale, the Eurofighter 2000 and the Russian Su-35. Some foreign aircraft are already at parity with the F-15
    * Nations are already denying America access to airspace around the globe by obtaining low-cost, but sophisticated, surface-to-air missile systems
    * Highly capable surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems pose a formidable challenge to the F-15’s survivability. Advanced SAM systems, because of their relatively low cost, are a quick and easy way for countries to modernize their air defense systems
    * Estimated twenty-one countries will possess the most advanced systems by 2005


    Is someone forgetting that the F-15 is 30 year old technology?
    Yes but that link is for the Raptor not the eagle pay attention.

  12. #177
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    1) What use is the raptor's 11 g force frame if the pilot blacks out by then?

    2) The manuvers the Su 37 can do (NOT the Cobra) were designed for combat.

    3) AGAIN the Raptor is not stealth to the Russian radar systems. Heh, the U2 was apperantly unreachable to the SAM systems of Russia . An F117 lost to a jet built in the Vietnam days...

    3) G load of Su 37 is 12 if it is THAT important...

    4)The S300- "The system consists of the 6AN6E 'Big Bird' phased array surveillance radar, the 36N6E 'Flop-Lid' phased array multi-function engagement radar capable of tracking stealth targets." 90 km guaranteed hit range, projectiles moving at 10000km/h, from 5m above the ground to 30000m. I am sure they used this technology on the Su 37 too.

    This is 1980's technology by the way...

    5)"F-22 Raptor - Air Dominance for the 21st Century

    No fighter in the world comes close to matching the F-22. By every measure" If this is the kind of site you research at, you need to rethink before you reply.

  13. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim
    1) What use is the raptor's 11 g force frame if the pilot blacks out by then?

    2) The manuvers the Su 37 can do (NOT the Cobra) were designed for combat.

    3) AGAIN the Raptor is not stealth to the Russian radar systems. Heh, the U2 was apperantly unreachable to the SAM systems of Russia . An F117 lost to a jet built in the Vietnam days...

    3) G load of Su 37 is 12 if it is THAT important...

    4)The S300- "The system consists of the 6AN6E 'Big Bird' phased array surveillance radar, the 36N6E 'Flop-Lid' phased array multi-function engagement radar capable of tracking stealth targets." 90 km guaranteed hit range, projectiles moving at 10000km/h, from 5m above the ground to 30000m. I am sure they used this technology on the Su 37 too.

    This is 1980's technology by the way...

    5)"F-22 Raptor - Air Dominance for the 21st Century

    No fighter in the world comes close to matching the F-22. By every measure" If this is the kind of site you research at, you need to rethink before you reply.
    I think the most important part is that they can both do sustained 9G turn. I'm no expert on aerodynamics, so I will leave it to other people to explain the maneuverability of F-22. The Raptors is stealth against Russian radars and S-300. Otherwise, China would not waste it time on things like Vera and multistatic radar.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim
    1) What use is the raptor's 11 g force frame if the pilot blacks out by then?
    Vadim, there is much you do not appear to grasp. First of all, the G-suit worn by Raptor pilots is good to 12G using normal straining excersizes. 9G without. This is the same liquid-filled suit worn by Gripen pilots, and was jointly developed by Sweden and the US here in the States.

    The limits that an AC is certified to and the physical limits are two very different things. It is very expensive to carry out all the testing involved in certifying the AC and weapons/subsystems, so arbitrary limits are set based on what the anticipated encounters will be. Beyond these limits, the pilot is not supposed to go, since it means that the AC has to undergo a very comprehensive and expensive series of tests to re-certify for flight. That does not mean a failure will occur, it only means that the extra testing to certify beyond the normal limits was not done due to cost considerations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim
    2) The manuvers the Su 37 can do (NOT the Cobra) were designed for combat.
    That's nice, but irrelevant, since the SU-37 was a tech demon and never carried weapons anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim
    3) AGAIN the Raptor is not stealth to the Russian radar systems. Heh, the U2 was apperantly unreachable to the SAM systems of Russia . An F117 lost to a jet built in the Vietnam days...
    You are operating under some serious misconceptions here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim
    3) G load of Su 37 is 12 if it is THAT important...
    I would refer you to your first comment- what good does that do to an unconsious pilot? In fact, several Russian pilots have died trying to execute Cobra manouvers due to over-G. And of course, the only flying SU-37 crashed some time back anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim
    4)The S300- "The system consists of the 6AN6E 'Big Bird' phased array surveillance radar, the 36N6E 'Flop-Lid' phased array multi-function engagement radar capable of tracking stealth targets." 90 km guaranteed hit range, projectiles moving at 10000km/h, from 5m above the ground to 30000m. I am sure they used this technology on the Su 37 too.
    Well, the NATO nick is Flap-Lid, not Flop-Lid. And these systems are way to large to put in a fighter jet.

    You might also be aware that the S-300 is a compromised system, we already have our hands on it, along with pretty complete technical specs from Israel. IIRC, there is a complete Flap-Lid radar system at Edwards. Incidentally, the F-16 B.60 ECM suite is specifically designed to defeat the S-300.

    I'm not saying it is not a threat, it's just not the threat that you assume it to be.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

  15. #180
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
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    Oh my Vadim, what talent you have...! (For densely packing BS into your posts.) The frustrating thing is that your points have been mentioned and mentioned so many times on these very forums it's not even funny.

    And that's not even when an actual expert like highsea takes on your posts, unlike a layman - me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim
    1) What use is the raptor's 11 g force frame if the pilot blacks out by then?
    ...Liquid-filled G-suits mean anything to you?

    2) The manuvers the Su 37 can do (NOT the Cobra) were designed for combat.
    ...No-one's demonstrated this so far.

    3) AGAIN the Raptor is not stealth to the Russian radar systems.
    Can it track as well as detect?

    At what range can it detect and track?

    Did the USAF lend you an F-22A to test it on?

    Heh, the U2 was apperantly unreachable to the SAM systems of Russia .
    It still took three dozen SAMs - including a friendly fire incident to shoot down one of the Russians' own chase planes - to take it down. And the U-2 relied on high altitude, not stealth. The F-22 not only has a very low RCS but probably has a fairly high operating altitude and high cruising speed.

    An F117 lost to a jet built in the Vietnam days...
    Not a jet, a SAM system.

    Still took 14 SAMs and ATROCIOUSLY arrogant planning on the NATO side.

    3) G load of Su 37 is 12 if it is THAT important...
    Do they have the appropriate suits?

    4)The S300- "The system consists of the 6AN6E 'Big Bird' phased array surveillance radar, the 36N6E 'Flop-Lid'
    A flop indeed.

    phased array multi-function engagement radar capable of tracking stealth targets."
    Did the Russians get a stealth aircraft to test it on?

    5)"F-22 Raptor - Air Dominance for the 21st Century

    No fighter in the world comes close to matching the F-22. By every measure" If this is the kind of site you research at, you need to rethink before you reply.
    The only thing wrong with that sales brochure is the very last sentence since there are some things in which the F-22A doesn't have a huge lead. But otherwise...
    Last edited by HistoricalDavid; 31 May 06, at 23:25.

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