Thread: F-22 vs. Su-37 who would win

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

Still not quite as good as the fully fledged F-15 ACTIVE, is it.

And if you want to talk about all thrust-vectoring technology, not just that used for manoeuvering, I could just mention the Hawker-Siddeley Harrier.

not as good as F-15????? dude.. the F-15 doesn't have TVC!!!
and the F-15 Active.. now you're comparing a NASA experimental plane which happens to be more recent then the Russians 70's experiments with TVC... and saying F-15 ACTIVE is better!!! dude.. u hear yourself... you're comparing the TVC tests on two planes... this is getting out of hand... lol

and the Harriers are a fine example of TVC to do VTOL... it still makes the Russians first one to use it for super-manuverability...

Originally Posted by Tronic

not as good as F-15????? dude.. the F-15 doesn't have TVC!!!

I have a feeling you can't read.

and the F-15 Active.. now you're comparing a NASA experimental plane which happens to be more recent then the Russians 70's experiments with TVC...

What's wrong with a NASA experimental plane?

and saying F-15 ACTIVE is better!!! dude.. u hear yourself... you're comparing the TVC tests on two planes... this is getting out of hand... lol

Well, it's a reasonable comment. But yes, let's focus on the original question: Su-37 vs. F-22, or since the Su-37 doesn't exist in any real combat sense, the Su-30MKI.

and the Harriers are a fine example of TVC to do VTOL... it still makes the Russians first one to use it for super-manuverability...

By a few years.

Still not going to save you from the F-22.

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

No, the aircraft will probably come back around. Ask Bluesman, whoever, but that diagram is assuming a single and rather unreasonable course of action.

right... it'ss come around if you're flying... if i'm in it.. i will have fired the trigger and turn that aircraft into a fireball by then...

I neither said nor implied that it performed a Kulbit, I said it had TVC, in a manner of speaking. We were playing the 'who's had TVC technology' game, you know.

we both know that Americans and the Russians both have TVC... and the Russians were the first to use it for super-manuverability...

and for the F-15 doing a Kulbit... you said it...

The F-15 definitely performed a kulbit...

you said it...

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

Still not going to save you from the F-22.

I know it probably won't...

Originally Posted by Tronic

right... it'ss come around if you're flying... if i'm in it.. i will have fired the trigger and turn that aircraft into a fireball by then...

No, I meant the (F-22?) comes around the back, while the Flanker is still getting its airspeed back.

we both know that Americans and the Russians both have TVC... and the Russians were the first to use it for super-manuverability...

And now in a real combat sense, both have it. So let the games begin.

and for the F-15 doing a Kulbit... you said it...
you said it...

Again, why would I lie? Not that I think it's a particularly useful manoeuver, but you're the one talking about airshow tricks in the first place.

Originally Posted by Tronic

I know it probably won't...

Too bad. By the way, you only put when something good happens for you.

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

No, I meant the (F-22?) comes around the back, while the Flanker is still getting its airspeed back.

F22 comes around the back??? Flanker will not get up it's airspeed, it will stop/stall depending on whatever move it is doing and fire... if the pilot is smart, he will not try to tail the Raptor.. just get it in view, lock on and fire...

Again, why would I lie? Not that I think it's a particularly useful manoeuver, but you're the one talking about airshow tricks in the first place.

first you say it can do the Kulbit... then you said it can't, and that you never said that... and now you say it can... make up your mind!!! And airshow trick... yeah, ok, whatever you say bro...

Too bad. By the way, you only put when something good happens for you.

dude... this is not about oh... F-22 is going to win because I like it... or Sukhoi will win because I like it... talking statistically the F-22 does have an edge over the Sukhoi in various fields... thats why I said that it will prbably come out on top... unlike you, i'm not biased...

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

And how the hell is such a tail-slide, or a cobra, or a kulbit going to save you from a 90G missile such as the AIM-9X? Or the 50Gs+ odd of an AMRAAM? It's probably going to help the missile by slowing the plane's airspeed, making him a stationary target. Thanks!

Cobra maneuvers make you go off radar and become invisible, like the IAF Mig-21s continuously diving at a stationary point and going off F-15 radars, rendering themselves invisible - quite a tactic. Besides whats the range of the AIM-9X? Its very much in the same class of the AA-12 Adder. The Vympel R-77 is designed to engage 12 G targets but thats if it comes within firing range of its target. Still because its an AIM-9X with the F-22, its the Raptor that has the advantage. An AIM-9X with an F-18 would be a total loss. A Flanker's engagement envelope would be far more with its KS-172 AAMLs.

But I think the maker of this thread mixed up the Su-37 with the Su-47 Berkut.

Originally Posted by Tronic

F22 comes around the back??? Flanker will not get up it's airspeed,

Without enough airspeed, any plane will crash.

it will stop/stall depending on whatever move it is doing and fire... if the pilot is smart, he will not try to tail the Raptor.. just get it in view, lock on and fire...

How is he going to see the Raptor if he's facing forward (to the right on that diagram), unable to manoeuvre aggresively because of a lack of airspeed, and the Raptor's coming around the back, i.e. to the left on that diagram, or has changed direction into the page or towards your viewpoint?

first you say it can do the Kulbit... then you said it can't, and that you never said that... and now you say it can... make up your mind!!!

Nowhere did I state that the Harrier could do the Kulbit and if you read that, you need your eyes checked.

And airshow trick... yeah, ok, whatever you say bro...

You have not provided any solid evidence to the contrary.

dude... this is not about oh... F-22 is going to win because I like it... or Sukhoi will win because I like it... talking statistically the F-22 does have an edge over the Sukhoi in various fields... thats why I said that it will prbably come out on top...

It has a MASSIVE edge in MANY fields. Of course, there's always the possibility of human error, the possibility of unforeseen circumstances of capabilities which may affect the outcome of the actual battle, but we can't really consider those now, can we?

unlike you, i'm not biased...

Are you prone to making unfounded accusations and to not being able to read?

Illustrate to me how I'm biased.

Originally Posted by Captain Drunk

Cobra maneuvers make you go off radar and become invisible,

From what angle, from what range? Facing the underside of the aircraft towards the detector would probably increase your RCS.

Too bad the F-22's always low RCS without having to sacrifice so much airspeed.

besides whats the range of the AIM-9X? Its very much in the same class of the AA-12 Adder.

So? Consider also the -9X's IIR seeker as well.

The Vympel R-77 is designed to engage 12 G targets but thats if it comes within firing range of its target. Still because its an AIM-9X with the F-22, its the Raptor that has the advantage.

Its Mach 1.8 supercruise would certainly increase the range if it fires it immediately.

An AIM-9X with an F-18 would be a total loss.

We're not talking about the F-18, of any version, though that probably wouldn't matter to you.

A Flanker's engagement envelope would be far more with its KS-172 AAMLs.

We're not talking about missiles which aren't even in service yet, though if you want to play that game, we could mention the ramjet AMRAAM or MBDA Meteor.

But I think the maker of this thread mixed up the Su-37 with the Su-47 Berkut.

Which was called the S-37 originally, perhaps a reasonable mistake to make.

Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid

Without enough airspeed, any plane will crash.

no no, the pilot can increase his speed once he's got the shot...

How is he going to see the Raptor if he's facing forward (to the right on that diagram), unable to manoeuvre aggresively because of a lack of airspeed, and the Raptor's coming around the back, i.e. to the left on that diagram, or has changed direction into the page or towards your viewpoint?

do you know the time duration of that entire move... it will only take a couple of seconds for the Sukhoi to get out of the move behind the enemy and release the missiles... how much time do you think the enemy will have to pull up around the Sukhoi... look at the diagram, the entire diagram shows a time span of 34 seconds which includes the Sukhoi tailing the enemy...

Nowhere did I state that the Harrier could do the Kulbit and if you read that, you need your eyes checked.

The Harrier??? You said the F-15 could do a Kulbit which it clearly can't since you need TVC for an aircraft to perform such a move, which the F-15 doesn't have... and no, I never said anything about you claiming that the Harrier could do the Kulbit... I mean you seriously considered that??? I was being sarcastic... how the heck do you expect a Harrier to perform a Kulbit??? How the heck did you even take such a thing seriously!!

You have not provided any solid evidence to the contrary.

like you have... my friend, this will remain an opinion and both of ours differ at this moment...

It has a MASSIVE edge in MANY fields. Of course, there's always the possibility of human error, the possibility of unforeseen circumstances of capabilities which may affect the outcome of the actual battle, but we can't really consider those now, can we?

Massive egde in Many!!! lol... nice, expand it as much as you can.. I already admit it it already has an advantage.. feel free to exagerate.. and then post all the advantages!!!

Are you prone to making unfounded accusations and to not being able to read?

Illustrate to me how I'm biased.

lol... I said the truth that I judge planes by their statistics and the F22 would come out on top... And I can point out many biased opinions, like... the one right above... " the F22 has a Massive egde in Many fields... I already acknowlegded it has an edge... but this Massive edge in Many fields is quite a biased opinion standing out there alone... no doubt it has an edge, but everytime you want to exagerate that much, please post statistics with it...

Too bad the F-22's always stealthy

and when did he say it wasn't??? He was merely stating a pont that the Cobra manuver is not completely useless since it can be used by planes to get off the radar... I don't know why you have to apply F22 vs... secenario to everything...

Originally Posted by Tronic

no no, the pilot can increase his speed once he's got the shot...

It takes time to increase airspeed, obviously.

do you know the time duration of that entire move... it will only take a couple of seconds for the Sukhoi to get out of the move behind the enemy and release the missiles... how much time do you think the enemy will have to pull up around the Sukhoi... look at the diagram, the entire diagram shows a time span of 34 seconds which includes the Sukhoi tailing the enemy...

It's a better idea as to what the (F-22?) would do than just to fly into the firing line knowing that the Sukhoi will be facing that way.

The Harrier??? You said the F-15 could do a Kulbit which it clearly can't since you need TVC for an aircraft to perform such a move, which the F-15 doesn't have...

and no, I never said anything about you claiming that the Harrier could do the Kulbit... I mean you seriously considered that??? I was being sarcastic... how the heck do you expect a Harrier to perform a Kulbit??? How the heck did you even take such a thing seriously!!

Talk about the planes with better precision, I think both you and I were getting mixed up.

like you have... my friend, this will remain an opinion and both of ours differ at this moment...

Reason and logic are not enough for you?

Massive egde in Many!!! lol... nice, expand it as much as you can.. I already admit it it already has an advantage.. feel free to exagerate.. and then post all the advantages!!!

Mach 1.8 supercruise - twice as fast as any Flanker - thus increasing the range of its weapons, practically unknown EW capabilities, very powerful AESA radar, extremely low RCS, the use of the -9X... those are significant advantages indeed. In addition, I imagine the F-22A would have quite an advantage in S/DEAD due to stealth, thrust-to-weight ratio, greater gun capacity, networking, support from its air force, etc.

Advantages most Sukhois would have almost certainly a slight advantage in gunfights, larger payload (assuming the F-22 wants to retain its low RCS), greater range, extra crewman, 30mm cannon, vastly lower cost, etc.

lol... I said the truth that I judge planes by their statistics and the F22 would come out on top... And I can point out many biased opinions, like... the one right above... " the F22 has a Massive egde in Many fields... I already acknowlegded it has an edge... but this Massive edge in Many fields is quite a biased opinion standing out there alone... no doubt it has an edge, but everytime you want to exagerate that much, please post statistics with it...

Refer to my above comment.

and when did he say it wasn't??? He was merely stating a pont that the Cobra manuver is not completely useless since it can be used by planes to get off the radar...

I have serious doubts about that, it makes no sense at all. If he's talking about the underside or overside of the aircraft facing you, that's pretty much going to increase the RCS than looking at the aircraft side-on.

I don't know why you have to apply F22 vs... secenario to everything...

Read the thread title.