Closed Thread
Page 10 of 31 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ... LastLast
Results 136 to 150 of 452

Thread: F-22 vs. Su-37 who would win

  1. #136
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Jul 05
    Location
    North London, UK
    Posts
    2,292
    Country: United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic
    that diagram shows an aircraft tailing your ass... but I suppose you're right... the aircraft will prbably do some aerobatics while tailing you to show he's not a predictable sheep...
    No, the aircraft will probably come back around. Ask Bluesman, whoever, but that diagram is assuming a single and rather unreasonable course of action.

    It's not going to save you... it will defenitely make you have the first shot... excluding BVR fighting...
    Are you factoring the coming-soon or in-service-now AIM-9X/JHMCS system with its 90deg+ off-boresight capability, fitted to F-15Cs and probably F-22s as well?

    Even in a gunfight and without the -9X, these airshow tricks are still of limited utility.

    lol... yes, sure it did bro.. whatever you say.. and I saw a Harrier performing a Kulbit too!!!
    I neither said nor implied that it performed a Kulbit, I said it had TVC, in a manner of speaking. We were playing the 'who's had TVC technology' game, you know.

  2. #137
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Patiala, Punjab
    Posts
    2,839
    Country: India
    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    Still not quite as good as the fully fledged F-15 ACTIVE, is it.

    And if you want to talk about all thrust-vectoring technology, not just that used for manoeuvering, I could just mention the Hawker-Siddeley Harrier.
    not as good as F-15????? dude.. the F-15 doesn't have TVC!!!
    and the F-15 Active.. now you're comparing a NASA experimental plane which happens to be more recent then the Russians 70's experiments with TVC... and saying F-15 ACTIVE is better!!! dude.. u hear yourself... you're comparing the TVC tests on two planes... this is getting out of hand... lol

    and the Harriers are a fine example of TVC to do VTOL... it still makes the Russians first one to use it for super-manuverability...
    Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
    -Touch The Sky With Glory

  3. #138
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Jul 05
    Location
    North London, UK
    Posts
    2,292
    Country: United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic
    not as good as F-15????? dude.. the F-15 doesn't have TVC!!!
    I have a feeling you can't read.

    and the F-15 Active.. now you're comparing a NASA experimental plane which happens to be more recent then the Russians 70's experiments with TVC...
    What's wrong with a NASA experimental plane?

    and saying F-15 ACTIVE is better!!! dude.. u hear yourself... you're comparing the TVC tests on two planes... this is getting out of hand... lol
    Well, it's a reasonable comment. But yes, let's focus on the original question: Su-37 vs. F-22, or since the Su-37 doesn't exist in any real combat sense, the Su-30MKI.

    and the Harriers are a fine example of TVC to do VTOL... it still makes the Russians first one to use it for super-manuverability...
    By a few years.

    Still not going to save you from the F-22.

  4. #139
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Patiala, Punjab
    Posts
    2,839
    Country: India
    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    No, the aircraft will probably come back around. Ask Bluesman, whoever, but that diagram is assuming a single and rather unreasonable course of action.
    right... it'ss come around if you're flying... if i'm in it.. i will have fired the trigger and turn that aircraft into a fireball by then...

    I neither said nor implied that it performed a Kulbit, I said it had TVC, in a manner of speaking. We were playing the 'who's had TVC technology' game, you know.
    we both know that Americans and the Russians both have TVC... and the Russians were the first to use it for super-manuverability...

    and for the F-15 doing a Kulbit... you said it...
    The F-15 definitely performed a kulbit...
    you said it...
    Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
    -Touch The Sky With Glory

  5. #140
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Patiala, Punjab
    Posts
    2,839
    Country: India
    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    Still not going to save you from the F-22.
    I know it probably won't...
    Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
    -Touch The Sky With Glory

  6. #141
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Jul 05
    Location
    North London, UK
    Posts
    2,292
    Country: United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic
    right... it'ss come around if you're flying... if i'm in it.. i will have fired the trigger and turn that aircraft into a fireball by then...
    No, I meant the (F-22?) comes around the back, while the Flanker is still getting its airspeed back.

    we both know that Americans and the Russians both have TVC... and the Russians were the first to use it for super-manuverability...
    And now in a real combat sense, both have it. So let the games begin.

    and for the F-15 doing a Kulbit... you said it...
    you said it...
    Again, why would I lie? Not that I think it's a particularly useful manoeuver, but you're the one talking about airshow tricks in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic
    I know it probably won't...
    Too bad. By the way, you only put when something good happens for you.

  7. #142
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Patiala, Punjab
    Posts
    2,839
    Country: India
    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    No, I meant the (F-22?) comes around the back, while the Flanker is still getting its airspeed back.
    F22 comes around the back??? Flanker will not get up it's airspeed, it will stop/stall depending on whatever move it is doing and fire... if the pilot is smart, he will not try to tail the Raptor.. just get it in view, lock on and fire...


    Again, why would I lie? Not that I think it's a particularly useful manoeuver, but you're the one talking about airshow tricks in the first place.
    first you say it can do the Kulbit... then you said it can't, and that you never said that... and now you say it can... make up your mind!!! And airshow trick... yeah, ok, whatever you say bro...


    Too bad. By the way, you only put when something good happens for you.
    dude... this is not about oh... F-22 is going to win because I like it... or Sukhoi will win because I like it... talking statistically the F-22 does have an edge over the Sukhoi in various fields... thats why I said that it will prbably come out on top... unlike you, i'm not biased...
    Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
    -Touch The Sky With Glory

  8. #143
    Banned Captain Drunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    02 Jan 06
    Location
    Goa, India
    Posts
    771
    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    And how the hell is such a tail-slide, or a cobra, or a kulbit going to save you from a 90G missile such as the AIM-9X? Or the 50Gs+ odd of an AMRAAM? It's probably going to help the missile by slowing the plane's airspeed, making him a stationary target. Thanks!
    Cobra maneuvers make you go off radar and become invisible, like the IAF Mig-21s continuously diving at a stationary point and going off F-15 radars, rendering themselves invisible - quite a tactic. Besides whats the range of the AIM-9X? Its very much in the same class of the AA-12 Adder. The Vympel R-77 is designed to engage 12 G targets but thats if it comes within firing range of its target. Still because its an AIM-9X with the F-22, its the Raptor that has the advantage. An AIM-9X with an F-18 would be a total loss. A Flanker's engagement envelope would be far more with its KS-172 AAMLs.

    But I think the maker of this thread mixed up the Su-37 with the Su-47 Berkut.
    Last edited by Captain Drunk; 30 May 06, at 13:20.

  9. #144
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Jul 05
    Location
    North London, UK
    Posts
    2,292
    Country: United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic
    F22 comes around the back??? Flanker will not get up it's airspeed,
    Without enough airspeed, any plane will crash.

    it will stop/stall depending on whatever move it is doing and fire... if the pilot is smart, he will not try to tail the Raptor.. just get it in view, lock on and fire...
    How is he going to see the Raptor if he's facing forward (to the right on that diagram), unable to manoeuvre aggresively because of a lack of airspeed, and the Raptor's coming around the back, i.e. to the left on that diagram, or has changed direction into the page or towards your viewpoint?

    first you say it can do the Kulbit... then you said it can't, and that you never said that... and now you say it can... make up your mind!!!
    Nowhere did I state that the Harrier could do the Kulbit and if you read that, you need your eyes checked.

    And airshow trick... yeah, ok, whatever you say bro...
    You have not provided any solid evidence to the contrary.

    dude... this is not about oh... F-22 is going to win because I like it... or Sukhoi will win because I like it... talking statistically the F-22 does have an edge over the Sukhoi in various fields... thats why I said that it will prbably come out on top...
    It has a MASSIVE edge in MANY fields. Of course, there's always the possibility of human error, the possibility of unforeseen circumstances of capabilities which may affect the outcome of the actual battle, but we can't really consider those now, can we?

    unlike you, i'm not biased...
    Are you prone to making unfounded accusations and to not being able to read?

    Illustrate to me how I'm biased.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Drunk
    Cobra maneuvers make you go off radar and become invisible,
    From what angle, from what range? Facing the underside of the aircraft towards the detector would probably increase your RCS.

    Too bad the F-22's always low RCS without having to sacrifice so much airspeed.

    besides whats the range of the AIM-9X? Its very much in the same class of the AA-12 Adder.
    So? Consider also the -9X's IIR seeker as well.

    The Vympel R-77 is designed to engage 12 G targets but thats if it comes within firing range of its target. Still because its an AIM-9X with the F-22, its the Raptor that has the advantage.
    Its Mach 1.8 supercruise would certainly increase the range if it fires it immediately.

    An AIM-9X with an F-18 would be a total loss.
    We're not talking about the F-18, of any version, though that probably wouldn't matter to you.

    A Flanker's engagement envelope would be far more with its KS-172 AAMLs.
    We're not talking about missiles which aren't even in service yet, though if you want to play that game, we could mention the ramjet AMRAAM or MBDA Meteor.

    But I think the maker of this thread mixed up the Su-37 with the Su-47 Berkut.
    Which was called the S-37 originally, perhaps a reasonable mistake to make.
    Last edited by HistoricalDavid; 30 May 06, at 13:25.

  10. #145
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Patiala, Punjab
    Posts
    2,839
    Country: India
    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    Without enough airspeed, any plane will crash.
    no no, the pilot can increase his speed once he's got the shot...

    How is he going to see the Raptor if he's facing forward (to the right on that diagram), unable to manoeuvre aggresively because of a lack of airspeed, and the Raptor's coming around the back, i.e. to the left on that diagram, or has changed direction into the page or towards your viewpoint?
    do you know the time duration of that entire move... it will only take a couple of seconds for the Sukhoi to get out of the move behind the enemy and release the missiles... how much time do you think the enemy will have to pull up around the Sukhoi... look at the diagram, the entire diagram shows a time span of 34 seconds which includes the Sukhoi tailing the enemy...


    Nowhere did I state that the Harrier could do the Kulbit and if you read that, you need your eyes checked.
    The Harrier??? You said the F-15 could do a Kulbit which it clearly can't since you need TVC for an aircraft to perform such a move, which the F-15 doesn't have... and no, I never said anything about you claiming that the Harrier could do the Kulbit... I mean you seriously considered that??? I was being sarcastic... how the heck do you expect a Harrier to perform a Kulbit??? How the heck did you even take such a thing seriously!!



    You have not provided any solid evidence to the contrary.
    like you have... my friend, this will remain an opinion and both of ours differ at this moment...


    It has a MASSIVE edge in MANY fields. Of course, there's always the possibility of human error, the possibility of unforeseen circumstances of capabilities which may affect the outcome of the actual battle, but we can't really consider those now, can we?
    Massive egde in Many!!! lol... nice, expand it as much as you can.. I already admit it it already has an advantage.. feel free to exagerate.. and then post all the advantages!!!



    Are you prone to making unfounded accusations and to not being able to read?

    Illustrate to me how I'm biased.
    lol... I said the truth that I judge planes by their statistics and the F22 would come out on top... And I can point out many biased opinions, like... the one right above... " the F22 has a Massive egde in Many fields... I already acknowlegded it has an edge... but this Massive edge in Many fields is quite a biased opinion standing out there alone... no doubt it has an edge, but everytime you want to exagerate that much, please post statistics with it...


    Too bad the F-22's always stealthy
    and when did he say it wasn't??? He was merely stating a pont that the Cobra manuver is not completely useless since it can be used by planes to get off the radar... I don't know why you have to apply F22 vs... secenario to everything...
    Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
    -Touch The Sky With Glory

  11. #146
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
    Join Date
    19 Jul 05
    Location
    North London, UK
    Posts
    2,292
    Country: United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic
    no no, the pilot can increase his speed once he's got the shot...
    It takes time to increase airspeed, obviously.

    do you know the time duration of that entire move... it will only take a couple of seconds for the Sukhoi to get out of the move behind the enemy and release the missiles... how much time do you think the enemy will have to pull up around the Sukhoi... look at the diagram, the entire diagram shows a time span of 34 seconds which includes the Sukhoi tailing the enemy...
    It's a better idea as to what the (F-22?) would do than just to fly into the firing line knowing that the Sukhoi will be facing that way.

    The Harrier??? You said the F-15 could do a Kulbit which it clearly can't since you need TVC for an aircraft to perform such a move, which the F-15 doesn't have...
    and no, I never said anything about you claiming that the Harrier could do the Kulbit... I mean you seriously considered that??? I was being sarcastic... how the heck do you expect a Harrier to perform a Kulbit??? How the heck did you even take such a thing seriously!!
    Talk about the planes with better precision, I think both you and I were getting mixed up.

    like you have... my friend, this will remain an opinion and both of ours differ at this moment...
    Reason and logic are not enough for you?

    Massive egde in Many!!! lol... nice, expand it as much as you can.. I already admit it it already has an advantage.. feel free to exagerate.. and then post all the advantages!!!
    Mach 1.8 supercruise - twice as fast as any Flanker - thus increasing the range of its weapons, practically unknown EW capabilities, very powerful AESA radar, extremely low RCS, the use of the -9X... those are significant advantages indeed. In addition, I imagine the F-22A would have quite an advantage in S/DEAD due to stealth, thrust-to-weight ratio, greater gun capacity, networking, support from its air force, etc.

    Advantages most Sukhois would have almost certainly a slight advantage in gunfights, larger payload (assuming the F-22 wants to retain its low RCS), greater range, extra crewman, 30mm cannon, vastly lower cost, etc.

    lol... I said the truth that I judge planes by their statistics and the F22 would come out on top... And I can point out many biased opinions, like... the one right above... " the F22 has a Massive egde in Many fields... I already acknowlegded it has an edge... but this Massive edge in Many fields is quite a biased opinion standing out there alone... no doubt it has an edge, but everytime you want to exagerate that much, please post statistics with it...
    Refer to my above comment.

    and when did he say it wasn't??? He was merely stating a pont that the Cobra manuver is not completely useless since it can be used by planes to get off the radar...
    I have serious doubts about that, it makes no sense at all. If he's talking about the underside or overside of the aircraft facing you, that's pretty much going to increase the RCS than looking at the aircraft side-on.

    I don't know why you have to apply F22 vs... secenario to everything...
    Read the thread title.

  12. #147
    Regular
    Join Date
    23 Apr 06
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by raptor1992
    what is the dbsm for all the major russian and american aircraft? i like to compare it.
    What's the difference between dbsm and rcs?

  13. #148
    Banned Captain Drunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    02 Jan 06
    Location
    Goa, India
    Posts
    771
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug97
    What's the difference between dbsm and rcs?
    Something more about rcs reduction by plasma stealth :

    According to an ITAE presentation, Russian researchers have developed mathematical tools that can calculate scattering from complex configurations, such as an Su-35 carrying a full external missile load, by breaking them down into small facets and adding the effects of edge waves and surface currents. The antennas are modelled separately and then are added to the entire RCS picture.

    "A problem of huge size" is how the researchers describe the Su-35 inlet, with a straight duct that provides direct visibility to the entire face of the engine compressor. The basic solution has been to apply ferro-magnetic radar absorbent material (RAM) to the compressor face and to the inlet duct walls, but this involves challenges. The researchers note: the material cannot be allowed to constrict airflow or impede the operation of anti-icing systems and must withstand high-speed airflows and temperatures up to 200ºC. The ITAE team has developed and tested coating materials that meet these standards. A layer of RAM between 0.7mm and 1.4mm thick is applied to the ducts and a 0.5mm coating is applied to the front stages of the low-pressure compressor, using a robotic spray system. The result is a 10-15dB reduction in the RCS contribution from the inlets.


    The modified Su-35 also has a treated cockpit canopy which reflects radar waves, concealing the high RCS contribution from metal components in the cockpit. ITAE has developed a plasma-deposition process to deposit alternating layers of metallic and polymer materials, creating a coating that blocks radio-frequency waves, is resistant to cracking and crazing and does not trap solar heat in the cockpit. The plasma-coating process is then carried out robotically in a 22 m3 vacuum chamber.

    ITAE and its partners have also developed plasma-type technology for applying ceramic coatings to the exhaust and afterburner. The conference video also showed the use of hand-held sprays to apply RAM to R-27 air-to-air missiles.

    ITAE has studied at least three techniques for reducing the RCS contribution of the radar antenna, in addition to the simplest method of deflecting the antenna upwards and treating or shrouding other components. One of these is to design a radome that can be switched from RF-transparent to RF-reflective. The interior of the radome would be coated with a cadmium sulphide or cadmium selenide thin-film semiconductor material which changes conductivity when illuminated with visible or ultra-violet light.

    A second technique that is also described in Western literature is to place a frequency selective surface screen in front of the antenna. This is a foil-like metal screen etched with small apertures which allow RF energy to pass within a narrow waveband, corresponding to the radar's own operating frequency. This reduces RCS, according to ITAE, but at the expense of radar performance.

    However, ITAE has flight-tested a more exotic technology: the use of a low-temperature plasma screen in front of the radar antenna. The screen hardware is mounted in front of the antenna and is transparent to the radar when switched off.

    When activated, the screen absorbs some incoming radar energy and reflects the rest in safe directions over all RF bands lower than the frequency of the plasma cloud. It switches on and off in tens of microseconds, according to ITAE.

  14. #149
    Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Dec 04
    Location
    Patiala, Punjab
    Posts
    2,839
    Country: India
    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    I don't know why you have to apply F22 vs... secenario to everything...
    Read the thread title.
    yes, the title is F22 vs. Su-37... the Su-37 is long way out of the discussion... we're talking about SUkhoi's in general now.. and second... that was in response to the Mig-21 using the Cobra to evade radar detection... he was merely giving an example how the Cobra can be useful in general... what did you think he was saying??? A Mig-21 using the Cobra to evade the F-22????
    Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
    -Touch The Sky With Glory

  15. #150
    Ex-Wabber Defense Professional
    Join Date
    10 Dec 04
    Posts
    7,029
    Country: United States
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic
    ... that was in response to the Mig-21 using the Cobra to evade radar detection... he was merely giving an example how the Cobra can be useful in general...
    No, he was talking about notching the F-15's radar, not a MiG-21 doing a cobra.

    It's a highly suspicious claim anyway, since modern radars are not so easily fooled, and fighter aircraft do not operate in a vacuum in the real world.

    Which just goes to show once again that using some reporter's overly simplistic explanation of a manouver (that may or may not have been used) in a tightly scripted airex to prove a point on the Internet only compounds the general level of ignorance.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Similar Threads

  1. We Can't Win If We Don't Know The Enemy
    By Shek in forum Operation Enduring Freedom and Af-Pak
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 06 Apr 07,, 22:25
  2. How to Win in Iraq—and How to Lose
    By Ray in forum The Middle East and North Africa
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 29 Mar 07,, 15:49
  3. Win for the Troops
    By Shek in forum The Middle East and North Africa
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 20 Jan 07,, 01:09
  4. Can Israel Win?
    By troung in forum The Middle East and North Africa
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 25 Aug 06,, 00:49
  5. Bush Sees a Rare Chance to Win Wisconsin
    By Gio in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09 Oct 04,, 07:01

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts