A-10 vs Apache; "tank killing"-wise

**~~raptor1992~~** · 22 Jun 05,, 02:13

A-10 and AH-64 have different anti-tank weapons but i think A-10 would win. oh yeah A-10 do have the capability of doing FACs and FOs which are both very effective.

**bigross86** · 22 Jun 05,, 19:56

Yeah, but doesn't answer the artillery/minefield question...

**Officer of Engineers** · 22 Jun 05,, 20:12

Originally Posted by bigross86

How far would the minefield be from your main body of troops? Wouldn't it make more sense for artillery to engage the enemy firther out and keep up a constant barrage? Obviously they all can't fire at once, due to range, but MLRS with anti-tank munitions could engage from pretty far out, and have the tube artillery join in once the enemy came into range, no?

Given the stated scenario that I see them first before they seen me, I have at least 5 hours prep time (which the air assets would give me). I can laid a hasty minefield in that time and just wait to they tackle the field. While they're tackling the minefield is when I close the trap by cratering their flanks and rear before I start the barrage on the main body itself. As an engr, I don't want to expose my people when I don't have to.

**Bill** · 27 Jun 05,, 23:12

"While they're tackling the minefield is when I close the trap by cratering their flanks and rear before I start the barrage on the main body itself."

Not wanting to speak above my former paygrade, i most humbly submit that a TOT barrage on the breeching element would be the way to inflict maximum casualties on the enemy in such a scenario.

Follow that up with an open sheaf walking fire barrage started at the enemies rear that forces their man body ever deeper into the minefield, and you'll force them right into direct fire and indirect fire mortar range in an unorganized and incoherent alignment.

That's when the real fun would begin.

**TopHatter** · 27 Jun 05,, 23:19

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Given the stated scenario that I see them first before they seen me, I have at least 5 hours prep time (which the air assets would give me). I can laid a hasty minefield in that time and just wait to they tackle the field. While they're tackling the minefield is when I close the trap by cratering their flanks and rear before I start the barrage on the main body itself. As an engr, I don't want to expose my people when I don't have to.

Let's hope Sniper isnt crawling around looking to pick off your engineers while they're laying that hasty minefield.

**Bill** · 27 Jun 05,, 23:38

"Let's hope Sniper isnt crawling around looking to pick off your engineers while they're laying that hasty minefield."

It's a lot more likely that some of my bretheren will be set up in good overwatch positions to cover the work of the Engineers. Hell, US engineers and EOD even have their own M-107 teams nowadays.

**Gun Grape** · 28 Jun 05,, 00:49

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"While they're tackling the minefield is when I close the trap by cratering their flanks and rear before I start the barrage on the main body itself."

Not wanting to speak above my former paygrade, i most humbly submit that a TOT barrage on the breeching element would be the way to inflict maximum casualties on the enemy in such a scenario.

Follow that up with an open sheaf walking fire barrage started at the enemies rear that forces their man body ever deeper into the minefield, and you'll force them right into direct fire and indirect fire mortar range in an unorganized and incoherent alignment.

That's when the real fun would begin.

Not bad snipe. After hitting their breech element, I'd drop some FASCAM to close the breech point. By hitting your own minefield with a TOT you might accidently help in the breech effort.

Then DPICM the main body. Throw in a little Felt wedge WP and enjoy the barbeque

**Bill** · 28 Jun 05,, 01:12

"Not bad snipe."

Coming from someone with your intimate knowledge of indirect fire systems and procedures, i take that as a real compliment. Thanx.

"After hitting their breech element, I'd drop some FASCAM to close the breech point. By hitting your own minefield with a TOT you would help in the breech effort."

I probably shoulda stated "an HE-Prox TOT barrage" given as how the breeching element would be largely composed of dismounted engin-queers without any overhead cover. HE-Prox would also minimize the damage to the minefield by 'friendly fire'.

But given that i didn't specify, and that whenever no specific mention of fuzing is made HE-Q is the default round, you are absolutely correct to assume that i was talking about HE-Q. My bad bro, i shoulda been more specific.

But even still, dropping a nice FASCAM FFE on the same grid as the TOT barrage(or at the IP of the walking fire barrage, or both) would be a damned fine idea regardless of the fuzing of the two previous FFEs.

"Then DPICM the main body. Throw in a little Felt wedge WP and enjoy the barbeque".

Hehe, that'd be the 'real fun' i was referring to.

Finding yourself forced into a minefield with walking fire, having it re-sealed behind you with FASCAM and then enduring massed direct and indirect fire would be no way to spend the day, lol.

"Felt wedge", i havn't heard that term in eons. Any idea what the origins of the term are? I don't recall anyone ever splainin' that to me before.

**TopHatter** · 28 Jun 05,, 01:18

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"Let's hope Sniper isnt crawling around looking to pick off your engineers while they're laying that hasty minefield."

It's a lot more likely that some of my bretheren will be set up in good overwatch positions to cover the work of the Engineers. Hell, US engineers and EOD even have their own M-107 teams nowadays.

Ahhhh...Clever. Shows you what a civvie like me knows

So for example, if you were tasked to eyeball an enemy engineer unit that is busily constructing a bridge, laying a minefield etc near the front lines, your biggest concern is that there would also be enemy snipers looking for you .

Ah..um...how does a sniper spot another sniper?

**Bill** · 28 Jun 05,, 01:23

"So for example, if you were tasked to eyeball an enemy engineer unit that is busily constructing a bridge, laying a minefield etc near the front lines, your biggest concern is that there would also be enemy snipers looking for you ."

Actually given the fact that my mission would be the protection of the engineers, my overriding mission goal would their physical safety, not mine.

"Ah..um...how does a sniper spot another sniper?"

FM 3-6, SNIPER AND COUNTERSNIPER TACTICS, TECHNIQUES, AND PROCEDURES
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-06-11/ch6.htm

The above ought to answer your questions fully.

**TopHatter** · 28 Jun 05,, 01:29

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Actually given the fact that my mission would be the protection of the engineers, my overriding mission goal would their physical safety, not mine.

Actually my fictional scenario had you on the other side of the coin, with the engineers as the enemy.

Say, Soviet bridging units or what have you.

And thanks for the link, my favorite quote from it

"Tank cannon can also be used to respond to sniper fire, although the danger of collateral damage is greater because of the extreme penetration of the round."

Understatement of the year

**Bill** · 28 Jun 05,, 01:35

"Actually my fictional scenario had you on the other side of the coin, with the engineers as the enemy. Say, Soviet bridging units or what have you."

I thought i answered that one already, with further clarification by Gun Grape.

If defending a minefield my immediate response in dealing with enemy breeching forces would be to reach for the radio to instigate an immediate RFF(actually, several RFFs in sequence). Failing that i'd be reaching for the radio to make a CAS request. If i could get no external support, i'd obviously be forced to engage them with direct fire from my rifle. Still effective, but by far the least desirable method of engagement for a couple reasons.

1) I can only engage troops i have direct LOS for within about a 1000 meter radius.
2) I'll expose my position and run the risk of having arty come raining down on MY head(something that's to be avoided whenever possible, lol).

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Jun 05,, 01:54

And there you go, Gentlemen, we cannot escape our trade. GG and M21 think targets. I think obstacles.

**Gun Grape** · 28 Jun 05,, 01:55

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

I probably shoulda stated "an HE-Prox TOT barrage" given as how the breeching element would be largely composed of dismounted engin-queers without any overhead cover. HE-Prox would also minimize the damage to the minefield by 'friendly fire'.

"Felt wedge", i havn't heard that term in eons. Any idea what the origins of the term are? I don't recall anyone ever splainin' that to me before.

I'd still drop RAAMS/ADAM FASCAM mix. The blast overpressure from the HE/VT might disable/disrupt/displace the mines. Better safe than sorry.

Felt Wedge WP is also known as M825 smoke. A base ejecting round who's payload consists of 116 WP-saturated felt wedges. Hence the name felt wedge WP

The smoke screen is produced when a predetermined fuze action causes ejection of the payload from the projectile. After ejection, the WP-saturated felt wedges in the payload fall to the ground in an elliptical pattern. Each wedge then becomes a point or source of smoke. Nothing like trying to run away and getting your boots smeared with WP.

Advantages being that the smoke stays closer to the ground vice the old M110 that billowed up or blew away quickly if the wind was blowing.

And "marking" a snipers position with WP usually fixes the problem! Your not suppose to target an individual/troops alone in the open with Wp. No one ever said you couldn't "mark tgt" or fire a "Spotting round" for range.