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Thread: Iran Raid Seen as a Huge Task for Israeli Jets

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    Iran Raid Seen as a Huge Task for Israeli Jets

    Iran Raid Seen as a Huge Task for Israeli Jets By ELISABETH BUMILLER

    WASHINGTON — Should Israel decide to launch a strike on Iran, its pilots would have to fly more than 1,000 miles across unfriendly airspace, refuel in the air en route, fight off Iran’s air defenses, attack multiple underground sites simultaneously — and use at least 100 planes.

    That is the assessment of American defense officials and military analysts close to the Pentagon, who say that an Israeli attack meant to set back Iran’s nuclear program would be a huge and highly complex operation. They describe it as far different from Israel’s “surgical” strikes on a nuclear reactor in Syria in 2007 and Iraq’s Osirak reactor in 1981.

    “All the pundits who talk about ‘Oh, yeah, bomb Iran,’ it ain’t going to be that easy,” said Lt. Gen. David A. Deptula, who retired last year as the Air Force’s top intelligence official and who planned the American air campaigns in 2001 in Afghanistan and in the 1991 Gulf War.

    Speculation that Israel might attack Iran has intensified in recent months as tensions between the countries have escalated. In a sign of rising American concern, Tom Donilon, the national security adviser, met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel in Jerusalem on Sunday, and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, warned on CNN that an Israeli strike on Iran right now would be “destabilizing.” Similarly, the British foreign secretary, William Hague, told the BBC that attacking Iran would not be “the wise thing” for Israel to do “at this moment.”

    But while an Israeli spokesman in Washington, Lior Weintraub, said the country continued to push for tougher sanctions on Iran, he reiterated that Israel, like the United States, “is keeping all options on the table.”

    The possible outlines of an Israeli attack have become a source of debate in Washington, where some analysts question whether Israel even has the military capacity to carry it off. One fear is that the United States would be sucked into finishing the job — a task that even with America’s far larger arsenal of aircraft and munitions could still take many weeks, defense analysts said. Another fear is of Iranian retaliation.

    “I don’t think you’ll find anyone who’ll say, ‘Here’s how it’s going to be done — handful of planes, over an evening, in and out,’ ” said Andrew R. Hoehn, a former Pentagon official who is now director of the Rand Corporation’s Project Air Force, which does extensive research for the United States Air Force.

    Michael V. Hayden, who was the director of the Central Intelligence Agency from 2006 to 2009, said flatly last month that airstrikes capable of seriously setting back Iran’s nuclear program were “beyond the capacity” of Israel, in part because of the distance that attack aircraft would have to travel and the scale of the task.

    Still, a top defense official cautioned in an interview last week that “we don’t have perfect visibility” into Israel’s arsenal, let alone its military calculations. His views were echoed by Anthony H. Cordesman, an influential military analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. “There are a lot of unknowns, there are a lot of potential risks, but Israel may know that those risks aren’t that serious,” he said.

    Given that Israel would want to strike Iran’s four major nuclear sites — the uranium enrichment facilities at Natanz and Fordo, the heavy-water reactor at Arak and the yellowcake-conversion plant at Isfahan — military analysts say the first problem is how to get there. There are three potential routes: to the north over Turkey, to the south over Saudi Arabia or taking a central route across Jordan and Iraq.

    The route over Iraq would be the most direct and likely, defense analysts say, because Iraq effectively has no air defenses and the United States, after its December withdrawal, no longer has the obligation to defend Iraqi skies. “That was a concern of the Israelis a year ago, that we would come up and intercept their aircraft if the Israelis chose to take a path across Iraq,” said a former defense official who asked for anonymity to discuss secret intelligence.

    Assuming that Jordan tolerates the Israeli overflight, the next problem is distance. Israel has American-built F-15I and F-16I fighter jets that can carry bombs to the targets, but their range — depending on altitude, speed and payload — falls far short of the minimum 2,000-mile round trip. That does not include an aircraft’s “loiter time” over a target plus the potential of having to fight off attacks from Iranian missiles and planes.

    In any possibility, Israel would have to use airborne refueling planes, called tankers, but Israel is not thought to have enough. Scott Johnson, an analyst at the defense consulting firm IHS Jane’s and the leader of a team preparing an online seminar on Israeli strike possibilities on Iran, said that Israel had eight KC-707 American-made tankers, although it is not clear they are all in operation. It is possible, he said, that Israel has reconfigured existing planes into tankers to use in a strike.

    Even so, any number of tankers would need to be protected by ever more fighter planes. “So the numbers you need just skyrocket,” Mr. Johnson said. Israel has about 125 F-15Is and F-16Is. One possibility, Mr. Johnson said, would be to fly the tankers as high as 50,000 feet, making them hard for air defenses to hit, and then have them drop down to a lower altitude to meet up with the fighter jets to refuel.

    Israel would still need to use its electronic warfare planes to penetrate Iran’s air defenses and jam its radar systems to create a corridor for an attack. Iran’s antiaircraft defenses may be a generation old — in 2010, Russia refused to sell Iran its more advanced S-300 missile system — but they are hardly negligible, military analysts say.

    Iranian missiles could force Israeli warplanes to maneuver and dump their munitions before they even reached their targets. Iran could also strike back with missiles that could hit Israel, opening a new war in the Middle East, though some Israeli officials have argued that the consequences would be worse if Iran were to gain a nuclear weapon.

    Another major hurdle is Israel’s inventory of bombs capable of penetrating the Natanz facility, believed to be buried under 30 feet of reinforced concrete, and the Fordo site, which is built into a mountain.

    Assuming it does not use a nuclear device, Israel has American-made GBU-28 5,000-pound “bunker buster” bombs that could damage such hardened targets, although it is unclear how far down they can go.

    Earlier this month, a Bipartisan Policy Center report by Charles S. Robb, the former Democratic senator from Virginia, and Charles F. Wald, a retired Air Force general, recommended that the Obama administration sell Israel 200 enhanced GBU-31 “bunker busters” as well as three advanced refueling planes.

    The two said that they were not advocating an Israeli attack, but that the munitions and aircraft were needed to improve Israel’s credibility as it threatens a strike.

    Should the United States get involved — or decide to strike on its own — military analysts said that the Pentagon had the ability to launch big strikes with bombers, stealth aircraft and cruise missiles, followed up by drones that could carry out damage assessments to help direct further strikes. Unlike Israel, the United States has plenty of refueling capability. Bombers could fly from Al Udeid air base in Qatar, Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean or bases in Britain and the United States.

    Nonetheless, defense officials say it would still be tough to penetrate Iran’s deepest facilities with existing American bombs and so are enhancing an existing 30,000-pound “Massive Ordnance Penetrator” that was specifically designed for Iran and North Korea.

    “There’s only one superpower in the world that can carry this off,” General Deptula said. “Israel’s great on a selective strike here and there.”

    Scott Shane contributed reporting.
    So do the Israelis have the resources necessary to take out Iran’s nuclear program by themselves?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim52 View Post
    So do the Israelis have the resources necessary to take out Iran’s nuclear program by themselves?
    “There’s only one superpower in the world that can carry this off,” General Deptula said. “Israel’s great on a selective strike here and there.”
    Chimo

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    Israel would be opening a big can of worms. It will ignite a war between Israel and Iran and drag others into this conflict and dramatically spike the oil prices around the world, hitting US economy, Indian economy. Israel knows this and is playing on this fact. Which is why I am beginning to resent the Israel because I don't think it is being responsible with all this war talk. If a war breaks out, India's economy will take a huge hit and Israel won't be making any friends of India.

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    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim52 View Post
    So do the Israelis have the resources necessary to take out Iran’s nuclear program by themselves?
    Yes, they do, but they will have effectively "shot their wad", if they do; Israel can expect to take significant losses if they do carry out an attack, which will affect their future ability to defend themselves against a retalitory strike by Iran. It would probably be a Pyhrric victory if Israel did strike Iran's nuclear program.

    "Yeah. See, we plan ahead, that way we don't do anything right now. Earl explained it to me." - Tremors, 1990

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    ^ Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    “There’s only one superpower in the world that can carry this off,” General Deptula said. “Israel’s great on a selective strike here and there.”
    For some reason I disagree with just about everything he's said in the past 5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch View Post
    Yes, they do, but they will have effectively "shot their wad", if they do; Israel can expect to take significant losses if they do carry out an attack, which will affect their future ability to defend themselves against a retalitory strike by Iran. It would probably be a Pyhrric victory if Israel did strike Iran's nuclear program.
    No they don't they did, they'd have done it already. Iranian air defenses are a complex issue. The Tor m1 batteries are designed to shoot down bombs and missiles as well as aircraft. While the Tor m1 likely can't penetrate the skin of a bunker buster, it doesn't need to, damage to the control surfaces causing a miss is just as good from the Iranian POV.

    Assuming up to date intel via US satellites Israel knows where the Tor M1's are, but with advanced ADA systems, knowing is less than half battle. They still have to get past them and deliver the pain or its a failed mission.

    Then there the S-200's ad HAWK's, older systems to be sure, but capable of killing aircraft if not suppressed. Close in there are numerous radar guided AAA cannon and short ranged missiles. These combine to make flying on the deck risky for Israeli war planes- law of averages and all that.

    Then there is the trip across Iraq, Israel would have to be stupid to not think that Iran hasn't put Shia militia men with sat phones in the most likely flight paths.

    Along most of the flight, the IAF war planes would have to operate under strict radio silence to avoid detection by Iranian Kolchuga systems and Arab radar nets. Syrian nets are likely broadcasting to Tehran anyway, but Saudi nets are another issue- a single clear voice mistake by a radar operator indicating something strange moving west to east, or even a spike in transmissions as an AWACS or radar sees something and I bet Iranian early warning nets get triggered.

    Then there are the political ramifications, over flying Iraq would hand Iraq to the Shia's for no other reason than the Sunni's couldn't be seen as pro-Jewish by not responding which would drive them into Tehran's orbit regardless.

    Finally there is the Iranian Air Force, its old but it has enough fighters to force Israeli planes to fight in fight out. Iranian intel on Israeli capabilities is at least as good as Israeli intel on Iranian capabilities. its hard to sucker punch someone who knows all your moves. The return flight would be very harrowing, Iranian F-14's in a tail chase have the range and speed to force IAF planes to jot tail it out or turn and burn in a2a combat burning fuel they may not be able to replace. An F-15i that crashes in Iraq or is shot down over Natanz is a win for Iran regardless.

    Oh, there is always the chance that any strike will have to fight its way home against Syrian fighters. A new Arab-Israeli war is probably looking attractive to Assad right about now.
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    ^ Yup. Sums it up.

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    I have no doubt that Israelis can carry out a raid against Iranian nuclear facilities but the question is, is this gonna be a knockout punch or an Iranian/Israelis version of Pearl Harbor. By broadcasting its intent to consider its option of attacking Iran, Israel just gave Iran every excuse to military prepare for an incoming attack like hell. You bet your bottom ass that Iranians would be studying the Syria raid and see how Israelis got through Syrian air defenses through EW and interdiction strikes and prepare accordingly. It won't stop the Israelis raid from being initially successful, but it won't give the Israelis what they want, only a long bitter war. The only play I see is that the Israelis make an unilaterally strike against Iran and succeeds. Iran responds but the resulting event is that oil spikes through the roof and USA has no choice but to step in and neuter Iran in order to bring back the oil prices. It is a risky option for Israel because Netanyhu made the cardinal sin of insulting President Obama and there's no telling in which way Obama would lean. Netanyhu, through his short sightedness, pissed off Obama and made any rapprochement impossible. You can strongly bet that Netanyahu is praying like hell that Obama will lose the next election. The way I see it, Israel will attack if there's a Republican President the next term. If it is seen that Obama will win, Israel will attack right before November or October and pressure Obama in taking Israel's side because if the economy tanks when oil prices shoot up, Obama has no choice but to attack Iran to protect the rest of the world economy. If Israel does nothing before the election and Obama wins, Israel cannot attack without US's pleasure because Obama would be at the helm of US for 4 more years and since it is his last term, he doesn't have to worry about being re-elected again, will personally go after Netanyhu and make him pay for insulting Obama on his home turf. Yeah real bright, Netanhyu, pissing off Obama and making him as a personal enemy and launching war talks without consulting Obama is a real strategic move.

    My guess is that Obama doesn't want Israel to attack Iran because he doesn't want another war on his hands and would actively in a covert means, deter Israel from attacking Iran by posting a CVN battlegroup near Iranian waters and any routes that IsAF would have to take and basically fly CAPs and monitoring on open frequencies, pinging any unfriendlies. It would no doubt tip off the Iranians and give Israelis pause.

    Of course the whole above picture will change if Iran does something more stupid than the ones attacking Israelis diplomats in another country (which I have a hard time believing that a state actor was behind it, even indirectly)
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    What about a raid going all out on taking out the airdefenses and then a follow-up to take out the nuke sites? Its not as if they can move them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Boat View Post
    What about a raid going all out on taking out the airdefenses and then a follow-up to take out the nuke sites? Its not as if they can move them?
    It would have to be a one-time deal. Maybe a two-wave strike but I don't know if Israel can support that. If you mean hit the defenses then a few hours later come back, no way. There are strategic/theater considerations and Iran would not let that slide. They might not be able to do much to stop the second strike, but would almost certainly lash out against US assets in the area.

    I don't think the Iranian Air Force would be able to do much air-to-air, frankly. Nothing they can launch in sufficient numbers would accomplish much besides soak up Israeli AMRAAMs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Boat View Post
    What about a raid going all out on taking out the airdefenses and then a follow-up to take out the nuke sites? Its not as if they can move them?
    No. Anything that would be sustainable, would need a FOB to conduct SEAD. You can't conduct SEAD from Israel, the distance is too far. They can do penetration strikes, but they can't SAM hunt all over Iran and then fly back to Israel, rearm, and do it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
    It would have to be a one-time deal. Maybe a two-wave strike but I don't know if Israel can support that. If you mean hit the defenses then a few hours later come back, no way. There are strategic/theater considerations and Iran would not let that slide. They might not be able to do much to stop the second strike, but would almost certainly lash out against US assets in the area.
    Wouldn't that be a good thing if they lashed out? That way the US could knock them back to the stoneage and we could remove them from our worry list.

    No. Anything that would be sustainable, would need a FOB to conduct SEAD. You can't conduct SEAD from Israel, the distance is too far. They can do penetration strikes, but they can't SAM hunt all over Iran and then fly back to Israel, rearm, and do it again.
    Fair enough. I was more thinking that on the first strike Iran would shoot off pretty every missile they had and fire off all their AAA rounds. The IAF could go in with light loads and maximum fuel for maneuver and loiter time. And then maybe follow up the next day.

    If Israel does strike and does manage to take out the nuke sites it won't be done and dusted will it? Wont it start an on going conflict anyway?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dago View Post
    No. Anything that would be sustainable, would need a FOB to conduct SEAD. You can't conduct SEAD from Israel, the distance is too far. They can do penetration strikes, but they can't SAM hunt all over Iran and then fly back to Israel, rearm, and do it again.
    Even if they had a FOB (ignoring the fact that there's not really anywhere to put it), I still don't see the Israelis being able to conduct SEAD while dealing with the Iranian Air Force and still maintaining an acceptable number of aircraft for defensive purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

    I don't think the Iranian Air Force would be able to do much air-to-air, frankly. Nothing they can launch in sufficient numbers would accomplish much besides soak up Israeli AMRAAMs.
    Jimmy, a2a is not my thing but Iranian capabilities are. The Iranian F-14's with the domestically produced AIM-54 and F-4's with domestically produced sparrows are a credible standoff threat to any Israeli strike package and the Eagles have to be aware of it. The Mig-29's and F-5's are not really a BVR threat, but are more than capable of forcing the eagles to waste missiles or drop bombs off target. Mig-19's did yeoman's work against US bombers in Vietnam and its a similar situation here. Israel also has a range problem- the F-15i's have the one way range but israel only has 25 of them, and the C's might if given CFT's but that cuts the C's missile load down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Boat View Post
    What about a raid going all out on taking out the airdefenses and then a follow-up to take out the nuke sites? Its not as if they can move them?
    You don't take out air defenses, you suppress them for a short period of time. If Israel strikes she needs to create a hole, push the bombers through it and then pull then back out through it or create another hole to egress out of.

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