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Thread: RQ-170 fallout?

  1. #1
    Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    RQ-170 fallout?

    Now how bad will the fallout be in the loss of some the best U.S. tech?
    I can not believe the wreckage was not destroyed at all costs!


    Iran’s captured RQ-170: How bad is the damage?
    By Dave Majumdar - Staff writer
    Posted : Friday Dec 9, 2011 10:09:04 EST
    No one in the U.S. government has officially confirmed that Iran has captured a U.S. RQ-170 Sentinel UAV. But just an hour after Iranian state television aired images purporting to show off its prize, the Air Force’s top uniformed officer raised the specter of a foreign power copying the stealthy jet’s top-secret technology.

    “There is the potential for reverse engineering, clearly,” said Air Force Chief Gen. Norton Schwartz. “Ideally, one would want to maintain the American advantage. That certainly is in our minds.”

    If the jet “comes into the possession of a sophisticated adversary,” there’s not much the U.S. could do about it, Schwartz said Thursday during a taping of “This Week in Defense News.”

    The Iranian broadcast showed apparent footage of a mostly intact RQ-170 put on public display. While the craft showed some damage, it seemed to be in remarkably good shape.

    One source said the aircraft in the footage was definitely the Sentinel, a subsonic, high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft built by Lockheed Martin. The aircraft appeared to have sustained damage consistent with a wheels-up landing, he said.

    The Associated Press quoted a former U.S. official as saying the Pentagon was using the aircraft to keep watch on Iran’s alleged nuclear-weapons facilities.

    However, the Pentagon had no official comment on the Iranian video footage.

    “We’re not going to add to what we said over the weekend,” said George Little, a spokesman for Defense Secretary Leon Panetta.

    HOW DAMAGING?
    Analysts were split over just how damaging the loss of the Sentinel will be.

    Dan Goure, an analyst at the Lexington Institute in Arlington, Va., compared it to the Soviet shoot-down of Francis Gary Powers’ U-2 spy plane, a tactical and strategic disaster for the U.S.

    The capture of the Sentinel calls into question the viability of the very concept of stealthy unmanned aircraft penetrating enemy airspace, Goure said.

    “It kind of undermines the whole argument for replacing manned aircraft with unmanned systems,” he said. “Unless you want to use it as a one-way missile.”

    The capture of a mostly intact RQ-170 by a hostile power like Iran is “the biggest Christmas present to our enemies in probably a decade, at least,” Goure said

    The captured aircraft will help adversaries copy U.S. stealth design techniques, coating materials, engine technology, and UAV command-and-control systems, he said. It will also help them develop countermeasures against stealthy U.S. aircraft.

    Moreover, he said, “Everybody now will get an understanding of our state-of-the-art intelligence collection capabilities.”

    Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia was more measured in his response.

    “It’s not the end of the world,” Aboulafia said.

    The Iranians will undoubtedly share the technology or even the crashed aircraft with other nations, he said — and Iranian news site Nasim reported Dec. 8 that Russian and Chinese experts were already on their way to visit. But the manufacturing know-how to build such aircraft can’t be duplicated from a captured machine, he said.

    Moreover, even if the coatings were compromised and much of the shaping of a stealth airframe article is already public domain, Aboulafia said, “There is so much more to stealth than the airframe.”

    Most of the mission systems on the captured plane are probably useless to an adversary, he said.

    “From a secrecy standpoint, it’s like dropping a Ferrari into an ox-cart technology culture,” Aboulafia said. “But I’m sure they can sell it to someone who can get some kind of information out of it. But the mission systems are likely to be too encrypted to be of use to anyone.”

    Still, reverse engineering is inevitable, he said: “Please insert Ethernet cable and download operating instructions here.”

    There are few examples of countries that gained a strategic edge simply by capturing an enemy platform. Soon after World War II, the Soviet Union jump-started its jet-engine program by copying Western technology, but lacking the deep understanding provided by bootstrap developments, never developed an innovative aerospace industry that could go toe-to-toe with the West.

    “It doesn’t work like that,” Aboulafia said. “But it wouldn’t be good.”

    HOW’D IT GO DOWN?
    Still unknown is how Iran captured the stealthy aircraft in the first place. Tehran claims to have used cyberwarfare to hack the drone’s systems.

    Schwartz declined to say whether he believed the RQ-170 was brought down by electronic means.

    Goure said the largely intact airframe ruled out the possibility of an engine or navigational malfunction.

    “Either this was a cyber/electronic warfare attack system that brought the system down or it was a glitch in the command-and-control system,” he said.

    If it was a malfunction, it was a spectacular one. Not only did the aircraft lose its command link, it also failed to return to base as it was designed to do in such an eventuality, Goure said.

    Aboulafia pronounced himself flummoxed that the RQ-170 was not programmed to self-destruct.

    “I would really hope they’d have a kill switch. Is the world really that poorly run?” he said.
    Iran’s captured RQ-170: How bad is the damage? - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times

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    Senior Contributor Dago's Avatar
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    Why was a stealthy UAV used for combating Afghanistan insurgents? Unless it was primarily directed against Iran.

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    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dago View Post
    Why was a stealthy UAV used for combating Afghanistan insurgents? Unless it was primarily directed against Iran.
    DING-DING-DING-DING-DING!

    YOU win the prize!

    "Yeah. See, we plan ahead, that way we don't do anything right now. Earl explained it to me." - Tremors, 1990

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    How stealthy is the RQ-170? Yes it's a flying wing but so are a lot of aircraft designed to operate with high aerodynamic efficiency. This thing looks like it's optimized to carry a lot of fuel in a clean shape with some LO characteristics from below, but with no application of any really sensitive technology.

    In fact I'm not just saying this now, people were saying this as far back as 2009: (Fulghum, David A.; Bill Sweetman (14 December 2009). "Stealth over Afghanistan". Aviation Week (McGraw-Hill): 26–27.), but now that one has gone down some how we forgot our previous assessment of this aircraft as a low cost, expendable drone for operating from austere facilities and carry out surveillance activities in high risk environments.

    I'm much more worried about the communications and sensor hardware on board, and it's a question that will never be answered publicly: was the electronics commensurate with being expendable, or not?

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    Senior Contributor Dago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch View Post
    DING-DING-DING-DING-DING!

    YOU win the prize!
    But I remember reading this was assigned to CENTCOM or Afghanistan. Wouldn't the CIA have it's own assets, for intelligence gathering, but I guess its possible they could of been doing an op for the CIA. n/m

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    Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    I wonder how much X-47B tech may be shared with the RQ-170?

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    I wonder how much X-47B tech may be shared with the RQ-170?
    I'm betting on very little.

    Based on the Images Iran provided, it would seem that the Sentinel puts stealth on minimal priority (assuming it IS the sentinel).

    We see no jagged edges, no planform edges, no Chines, no RAM, incredibly poor worksmanship on extremely thin access panels, and an Intake grill made of numerous fairly large squares(Such a design should induce greater radar return back to the sender contrasting to the F-117 grills where it is composed of much finer diamond mesh), heck, even the control surfaces differ significantly in that the RQ-170 uses a simple singular Aileron system where as the X-47B uses a Split Aileron system employed on the B-2.

    As for the flight controls and control data, the RQ-170 was quoted to have lost signal and glided to its doom, suggesting that the actions of the RQ-170 depends almost entirely upon the ground control with a basic auto-pilot system onboard. The X-47B on the other hand is said to be able to perform 90% of the tasks all by itself and the only thing the "Pilot" needs to do is plan a destination/route as well as to confirm actions recommended by the X-47B.

    Quite frankly, the only thing that would be remotely useful for the Iranians is the PR as well as possible peeking at the avionics and communication systems onboard.
    Which can lead to some major problems of course should they succeed in gathering any useful information from it.

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    Contributor mustavaris's Avatar
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    IMHO: not a big deal for US, but will boost Iranian capabilities by a little. PR-wise.. Major Iranian victory and US screw up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustavaris View Post
    IMHO: not a big deal for US, but will boost Iranian capabilities by a little. PR-wise.. Major Iranian victory and US screw up.
    If we had to lose something to Iran, it is too bad that it wasn't a UAV converted PZL Wilga with servo motors on the controls, pylon mounted fuel tanks, COTs/MOTs cameras in a pod on the belly, and a couple of COTs PCs running Linux mounted in a portable Pelican-Hardig shock isolated rack mount case (one for nav and flight control, the other for the spooky payload). Let them reverse engineer that. I suspect they got something a lot more interesting to play with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    I wonder how much X-47B tech may be shared with the RQ-170?
    IMO, bugger all. Different conops for both platforms. the former has greater autonomy and is far more sophisticated. it also seems to indicate that the lust to embrace COTs over MOTS/GOTs has contributed to the loss.

    eg milspec reqs for UAV's has been about multiple redundancy. eg typically if a UAV loses comms then it either goes back to last waypoint with comms (stored and then retrieved) or tasked to do widening laps in the hope of reconnecting. If safe locs are in range they can be programmed as a default waypoint. ie there is comms redundancy and recovery built in.

    losing comms and descending to land (if as promoted) means that basic redundancy was not built in - thats typically something that is a legacy of fast tracking a requirement, and fast tracking usually means going to a COTS solution to bring something into service a lot faster.

    losing a 170 would not provide a wealth of material (unlike losing an X-47B). Look at the fit and finish of the platform, it was a rapid development. An unattarctive loss politically, militarily not so much, irritating though as it would require some changes across the ISR footprint on spectrum management and monitoring issues.
    Last edited by gf0012-aust; 13 Dec 11, at 20:49.

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    Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    The size of the intake grille mesh made me wonder too - it is pretty coarse.

    I'm much more worried about the communications and sensor hardware on board, and it's a question that will never be answered publicly: was the electronics commensurate with being expendable, or not?
    A question that I have is "did they capture the sensor package intact? -if so why hide it in the photos?"
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 13 Dec 11, at 20:55.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    The size of the intake grille mesh made me wonder too - it is pretty coarse.
    that whole airframe is a tad ordinary compared to what the US has produced at the hi-end of these platforms. I seriously think that the 170 at the platform level has a lower RCS carcass installed on a "standard" UAV

    its a flying comms node, and designed to go in against an unsophisticated threat holder, it just needs to get in, stay and send.

    eg, you wouldn't see it being used against a more sophisticated peer like china.

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    The size of the intake grille mesh made me wonder too - it is pretty coarse.
    Well, all it has to do is be smaller than the wavelength of the radar looking at it, right? The grill on the F-117 was pretty coarse also.
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    Battleship Enthusiast Defense Professional USSWisconsin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Well, all it has to do is be smaller than the wavelength of the radar looking at it, right? The grill on the F-117 was pretty coarse also.
    Yes, that grill would be for centimeter range radar, there is millimeter range radar.
    "If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children." -- Confucius

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    Senior Contributor Dago's Avatar
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    Which means increased clutter. Does Iran possess low frequency radar that is advanced in signal processing? And then again, it's extremely difficult to target with them. OTH radar is used for detection like the JORN in Australia and not targeting, correct? As there is a longer wavelength.
    Last edited by Dago; 14 Dec 11, at 23:22.

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