FLASH: India M-MRCA Official Shortlist

**ObiWanKenobi** · 27 Apr 11,, 18:25

Livefist: FLASH! Rafale & Typhoon Move To Next Level In M-MRCA, Others Out!

It's official, all are knocked out except Dassault and Eurofighter. These are the first knock-outs since the competition started in 2001. I thought this was worth opening a new thread for.

The selection has been made on the basis of the technical and field trials conducted by IAF teams. This is the final leg will include commercial bids by the short-listed competitors to the MoD.

ACM Naik and many others are now hoping that none of the loosing competitors try to scuttle the process by making accusations of corruption, irregularities in the selection procedure and the like.

For example, Lokheed Martin may want to scuttle the process so it can buy enough time to get the F-35 ready. Just saying.

**ObiWanKenobi** · 27 Apr 11,, 18:34

Here is another source. More reliable

India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist | StratPost

**bolo121** · 27 Apr 11,, 18:54

I wonder when the MMRCA scam will be revealed and how many crores will have been looted?

**Skywatcher** · 27 Apr 11,, 19:17

The Typhoon sounds like a better option, if nothing else it seems to have access to a larger arsenal of guided munitions.

**Phoenix10** · 27 Apr 11,, 21:45

I've always been curious why the Indian Air Force wanted the Su-30MKI, PAK-FA, and EF/Rafale. If the SU-30MKI and PAK-FA are flying air superiority, I would have thought they would want an aircraft with more multi-role capability to handle the other duties. The EF and Rafale don't carry the variety of A2G weapons that something like an F-15In or F/A-18In would carry.

This means the Indian AF will continue operating US, Russian, and European aircraft for a long time. I'm glad I'm not in charge of their logistics!

**highsea** · 28 Apr 11,, 02:55

decision due any day now.....

**Blademaster** · 28 Apr 11,, 16:04

Originally Posted by Phoenix10

I've always been curious why the Indian Air Force wanted the Su-30MKI, PAK-FA, and EF/Rafale. If the SU-30MKI and PAK-FA are flying air superiority, I would have thought they would want an aircraft with more multi-role capability to handle the other duties. The EF and Rafale don't carry the variety of A2G weapons that something like an F-15In or F/A-18In would carry.

This means the Indian AF will continue operating US, Russian, and European aircraft for a long time. I'm glad I'm not in charge of their logistics!

PAK-FA is designed to replace the aging MiG-29s as they near their end-life and is also design to take over Su-30s as they near their end lifes with the next upgrade of PAK-FA. The MMRCA was designed to replaced the MiG-23s which has been phased out and is about to replace the Jaguars and MiG-27s when they get phased out down in the road. The Typhoons/Rafales will receive the next upgrade where they can carry A2G weapons.

So you will see the current inventory becoming like this

MiG-29s -------> PAK-FA mk I (100 planes)
Su-30s MKIs ---> PAK-FA mk II (130 planes)
Mig 27s --------> MRCA/AMCA (200/300)
Jaguars --------> MRCA/AMCA
MiG- 23s -------> MRCA/AMCA
Mirages 2000s --> MRCA/AMCA
Mig 21 bis ------> LCA mk II (450 - 600)

So instead of seeing 7 to 10 types in the future, you will see 4 different types in massive quantities. Also you will see the breakdown of combat planes into 50:50 ratio of two engines vs one engine planes.

So I see this logistics jam being eased in the future. I see PAK-FA primarily designed for air superiority role and the MMRC/AMCA for multi-roles and LCA the affordable jack of all trade to keep the numbers on the IAF's favorable side when going against Pakistan or China.

**Stitch** · 28 Apr 11,, 16:41

I am disappointed that the IAF did not pick the F-18E/F/G, especially with the warming relations between the US Gov't and the Indian gov't; I think that, overall, it was the most qualified contender. I see the Typhoon winning this procurement process, and the Indians being disappointed in the ToT and the product support (or, rather, lack thereof).

**Blademaster** · 28 Apr 11,, 17:05

I am not surprised that India did not select any of the American vendors for a sensistive project like this one because India is not willing to live with ITAR and other crap that US pulls out on its customers. India want to be able to use its weapons without any American interference.

I know that the downside, judging from the performance over the Libya conflict, US weapons would be far superior and product support excellent but only for something that US supports and agrees with. US will not agree to a conflict with Pakistan. And that is the sticking point.

**Stitch** · 28 Apr 11,, 17:10

Originally Posted by Blademaster

I know that the downside, judging from the performance over the Libya conflict, US weapons would be far superior and product support excellent but only for something that US supports and agrees with. US will not agree to a conflict with Pakistan. And that is the sticking point.

That's true; I could just see the US Gov't pulling all forms of support out from under the Indian gov't if anything ever started with Pakistan, even if didn't have a presence in Pak anymore.

**ObiWanKenobi** · 28 Apr 11,, 17:23

How good an aircraft is will have nothing to do with winning the tender from now on. The first two stages of the procurement process were based on that and only that.

Originally Posted by Stitch

I am disappointed that the IAF did not pick the F-18E/F/G, especially with the warming relations between the US Gov't and the Indian gov't; I think that, overall, it was the most qualified contender. I see the Typhoon winning this procurement process, and the Indians being disappointed in the ToT and the product support (or, rather, lack thereof).

It's only now that it's all about price, geopolitics, offsets, ToT etc. Had the Super Hornet made it till here, it would have won for sure. But it didnt.

Is there any reliable source of finding out how much these things cost? I'm finding all sorts of figures on the internet from $70 million a piece to $300 million a piece. It seems that Rafale is cheaper.

**proud2bindian** · 28 Apr 11,, 17:27

Originally Posted by Stitch

I am disappointed that the IAF did not pick the F-18E/F/G, especially with the warming relations between the US Gov't and the Indian gov't; I think that, overall, it was the most qualified contender. I see the Typhoon winning this procurement process, and the Indians being disappointed in the ToT and the product support (or, rather, lack thereof).

Well the old design of the f-18,hassle manner of TOT,CISMOS problem has got f-18 in problem and i see the EF Typhoon winning from here for sure.

**ObiWanKenobi** · 28 Apr 11,, 17:39

Originally Posted by Stitch

I am disappointed that the IAF did not pick the F-18E/F/G, especially with the warming relations between the US Gov't and the Indian gov't; I think that, overall, it was the most qualified contender. I see the Typhoon winning this procurement process, and the Indians being disappointed in the ToT and the product support (or, rather, lack thereof).

US still has a good chances of bagging many other Indian deals Stitch. Not to mention ones it already got like the 8 P8-I Posiedons for $2.1 Billion for the LRMR deal, Six C-130J for $1 Billion with 6 more likely, 10 C-17 Globemasters for $5.8 billion. The upcoming deals in which US has great chances is the MRMR (medium range maritime reconnaissance aircraft) for the navy, Refuelling tankers, various helicopter procurements and few more more. I think US will make deals worth more than MMRCA.

**Phoenix10** · 28 Apr 11,, 17:47

Originally Posted by Blademaster

PAK-FA is designed to replace the aging MiG-29s as they near their end-life and is also design to take over Su-30s as they near their end lifes with the next upgrade of PAK-FA. The MMRCA was designed to replaced the MiG-23s which has been phased out and is about to replace the Jaguars and MiG-27s when they get phased out down in the road. The Typhoons/Rafales will receive the next upgrade where they can carry A2G weapons.

So you will see the current inventory becoming like this

MiG-29s -------> PAK-FA mk I (100 planes)
Su-30s MKIs ---> PAK-FA mk II (130 planes)
Mig 27s --------> MRCA/AMCA (200/300)
Jaguars --------> MRCA/AMCA
MiG- 23s -------> MRCA/AMCA
Mirages 2000s --> MRCA/AMCA
Mig 21 bis ------> LCA mk II (450 - 600)

So instead of seeing 7 to 10 types in the future, you will see 4 different types in massive quantities. Also you will see the breakdown of combat planes into 50:50 ratio of two engines vs one engine planes.

So I see this logistics jam being eased in the future. I see PAK-FA primarily designed for air superiority role and the MMRC/AMCA for multi-roles and LCA the affordable jack of all trade to keep the numbers on the IAF's favorable side when going against Pakistan or China.

Blademaster, Thanks. It's helpful to see it broken out like that. I'm sure it will take some time to procure these aircraft though so for a while they will have to live with combination of the "7-10 old types" and the "3 new types". Should be a potent force once completed.

**ObiWanKenobi** · 28 Apr 11,, 18:20

And it has begun.

Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision
The Hindu : News / International : Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision

US 'Deeply Disappointed' by Indian Fighter Deal Setback
US 'Deeply Disappointed' by Indian Fighter Deal Setback | South Asia | English

And just one day after the announcement the following happens,

Timothy Roemer, top US diplomat in India, resigns
BBC News - Timothy Roemer, top US diplomat in India, resigns

Seems MMRCA was officially a 'big deal' for the Americans. Why? 10 billion is nothing compared to the orders US has already won and will be winning in India.