LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With QuoteIAF has 40 to 50 M2K and will soon phase out 145 mig 27 and 150+ Jaguar both used for ground attack. MMRCA is planned as a replacement for mig 27 and Jaguar .
In theory, a Typhoon or Rafale should be able to do much, much more than a MiG-27 thanks to multirole and digital equipment.Originally Posted by kuku
IAF has 40 to 50 M2K and will soon phase out 145 mig 27 and 150+ Jaguar both used for ground attack. MMRCA is planned as a replacement for mig 27 and Jaguar .
You would like that wouldn't you.
If you don't have an advanced Aviation industry, you will have to pay well to get the best/decent stuff in the market. you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
What exactly do you mean by current planes? Barring Su-30's, every other fighter jet we have in our arsenal aren't nearly as advanced as the one's that we have in the MRCA race.
And please do tell me, which newer generation plane is going to fill the gap in the mean time, once we retire all the soviet era migs and we have a lot of them. And all newer generation planes are very costly, unless you want to fill the IAF with HAWK trainers.
We would've been the last customer for that type. In fact they closed the M2k production line soon after. What about spare parts, future upgrades?
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)
More advanced training aircrafts, thank you sir, may i have another....
Ya, but if you use a doctorate to do the same job as a monkey, you might as well give the job to a monkey.
There you go Su-30, already in service, large numbers, support infra existing, If its a choice between a fancy airforce and MiG-21 trainers, yes hawks will be better.
We would already have 5 squadrons in service by NOW, as opposed to 2020.that was the gap we had to fill, and for the same money we could have had double the number of planes.
As spare parts and upgrades go, install the production line, upgrade are always available, its just that the French ones are exorbitantly expensive.
Last edited by kuku; 16 May 11, at 03:26.
cheers
Can you please explain how you came to the conclusion that a multirole 4+ generation fighter aircraft capabilities are not better than all those older generation fighters that we already have ?
I really don't think, you know what you are talking about.Hawks will be better ? for what? surrendering the Indian air space to any hostile AF once the baloon goes up? Hawk trainers don't even have a radar. Do you even know that?
Su-30 is a long range air superiority fighter. What we need is a medium multi role combat aircraft that will perform strike,attack,close support aircraft and will also be used as point defence interceptors.
The sanctioned strength of IAF is 39 squadrons and we only have 32 right now and fast depleting. We need a "potent fighter jet" (and in large numbers, given our threat scenario) fit for an emerging power, not that of a banana republic.
Well, blame it on bureaucracy and red tapism. Still that doesn't mean you buy Hawk trainers to fill in the gap. That will be stupidity.
Install the production line? easily said than done. The Aircraft manufacturer has to give you a license to install a production line and even then, you won't be able to produce all spare parts. check this link.
Last edited by hammer; 16 May 11, at 08:33.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)
Well for one reason if all you are doing is moving mud and your the sort of air-force that can not afford smart bombs.......... dont really matter if your plane is jaguar or eurofighter.
Yes compared to your extremly long carrier in air force, i know jack shit
What i am saying is very clear, we do not need super expensive rafale or eurofighter to satisfy our needs, and that is what i think in my civilian position, the logic behind my though is very simple, we have air superiority planes, what we need is a plane that can drop bombs and have a decent air to air ability, not a super duper 4.5 generation plane that is super expensive and will loose much of its air to air edge as soon as it faces 5th generation platforms which are over the horizon, might as well have gone for mirage when we had the chance.
Why are you saying that more Su-30s can not perfom the same role?
Or are you saying they will be more expensive to operate? does not seem like that.
In that case, we need more planes, instead of super expensive less planes, anyways a potent fighter jet for the region is Su-30, may be not a potent attack plane with out integrating more weapons on to it (with Israeli kits in Indian market that dont seem so difficult).
I was blaming bureaucracy, you have the habit of shouting at people, not my problem.......
Blah blah blah!!!!
See the current tender, it requires the same damn thing, near all mechanical production in India.....
cheers
Indian airforce used smart bombs during Kargil, today, it is even more reliant on them. Last I heard, OFB was trying to bring the Paveway-II production line to India to mass produce for the IAF.
Tell a pilot to fly an interception mission in a Hawk Trainer.What i am saying is very clear, we do not need super expensive rafale or eurofighter to satisfy our needs, and that is what i think in my civilian position, the logic behind my though is very simple, we have air superiority planes, what we need is a plane that can drop bombs and have a decent air to air ability, not a super duper 4.5 generation plane that is super expensive and will loose much of its air to air edge as soon as it faces 5th generation platforms which are over the horizon, might as well have gone for mirage when we had the chance.
Having more of the same type means you're more prone to the enemy's EW measures, the enemy has to spend less money to counter you, and you're at the risk of being at someone elses mercy again (read 1965 arms suspension to India).Why are you saying that more Su-30s can not perfom the same role?
Or are you saying they will be more expensive to operate? does not seem like that.
So you wish for the IAF to be going up against the PLAAF and PAF with only one type of aircraft? Its a critically flawed idea.In that case, we need more planes, instead of super expensive less planes, anyways a potent fighter jet for the region is Su-30, may be not a potent attack plane with out integrating more weapons on to it (with Israeli kits in Indian market that dont seem so difficult).
Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory
Quantity has a Quality all its own. However, there is a very good reason that any nation looking to build a strong national defense is looking for Quality aircraft (not trainers) as the staple of their air forces. If that were not the case, China, Russia, Brasil, etc would just be buying very large numbers of cheap aircraft. That is not what is happening. 21st century air combat is going to be driven by things like the ability to share information between assets (sea, air, ground) and having excellent sensors, communications, weapons, etc is huge. If you were to take a hawk trainer and add the necessary coms, datalinks, sensors, radars, HMI, multimission equiment, weapons, etc it would no longer be a "cheap" aircraft. It might still be cheaper than a EF or Rafale, but it also wouldn't have the performance to keep the exchange ratio versus potential threats favorable enough to justify its existance. In short, there is a very good reason that anyone looking to have a potent airforce is seeking aircraft such as those in the MMRCA competition.
Last edited by Phoenix10; 19 May 11, at 22:24.
No One Kicks A$! Without Tanker Gas
How do you think IAF took out the C&C and supply dumps of PA during Kargil? They got lucky? You really don't know what you are talking about. do you? .
IAF bought LGB conversion kits from Israeli and converted dumb iron bombs into smart guided munitions and used it successfully during kargil wars.
And now we can produce LGB's ourselves. We cannot afford it? Let me give you a wake up call, we may not be a super power like US, but we ain't Srilanka either. And MMRCA is to replace the aging Mig21's not Jaguars.
See tronic's and phoenix's post. You don't have to be a chief strategist in IAF to understand what they are saying.
Considering how "well" informed you are, on air force related subjects, we really don't need a serving air force officer to argue with you. A civilian like me with minimal knowledge on IAF , but a bit of common sense is more than enough to counter you.
P.s: Btw they don't have "carriers" in air force, just careers.
Can you please quit whining about the mirages already? They are gone!. You need a good 4.5 generation plane to perform all the multirole functions (and more )that you have mentioned above. If you want a fighter that can supercruise into the battlefied and drop a smart bomb and then switch to air interception mode and then land safely back home, you need a 4 to 4.5 generation fighter in the current threat scenario.
And a fifth generation fighter would lose its edge, once the sixth generation fighter is developed. Whats your point? Aircraft development is dynamic and won't stop. And the fifth generation fighters are gonna be even more costlier.
Su-30 "can" be used for the same role. But its a big aircraft with long legs and would be used primarily for air superiority roles. They have a different role altogether. To keep the skies clear of enemy aircraft and keep it so till the war ends, so that other aircrafts can concentrate on enemy land forces and targets. Using a part of Su-30's for other roles is like using a hammer to swat flies.
And yes they are pretty expensive. They cost around 100 million a piece.
Okay wise guy, choose a plane that we can buy in large numbers and are less expensive. Lets see which one fits your bill. And please don't come up with your ingenious "Hawk" idea again and remember ... Mirage is dead.And now you know that IAF has reserved SU-30 for other roles.
So why don't you come up with a fighter jet that meets your expectations.
LOL... really?!! All mechanical production in India? You mean like Su-30's TOT?
Last edited by hammer; 20 May 11, at 10:48.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)
SLAF is equipped with Laser guided munitions.
And MMRCA, I believe is infact to replace the Jaguars and Mig-27s. HAL Tejas replaces the Mig-21.
Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory
I didn't know that till you mentioned. Even SLAF has got LGBs. Seems only IAF can't afford it.
Initially MMRCA started out to replace Mig21's, but the goal posts have changed so often and now the replacement aircraft is required to perform the functions of Jaguars and Mig-27s as well. Hence the term multirole.
But yes, HAL Tejas would be the apt replacement for Mig21s.
defenseindustrydailyWhat began as a lightweight fighter competition to replace India’s shrinking MiG-21 interceptor fleet appears to have bifurcated into 2 categories now, and 2 expense tiers.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)
Well I may not be an expert in this.. But from my personal opinion I think this is a very good move. Because at this point of time lets say if India has gone with the American fighters ,with the joint project from Russia coming up (PAK-FA) India don't want to upset the Russians by eliminating them , also they have been the major suppliers for over 4 decades now. Also if India eliminates American fighters and includes the Russian fighters it would still have a much more impact in US-India relationship ( I may be wrong here ). So by eliminating both the players India has maintained the relationship with both the countries and also Rafale and Eurofighter are both good in MMRCA section, So I think it's a very good strategic move.
Last edited by commander; 27 May 11, at 15:39.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Share this thread with friends: