FLASH: India M-MRCA Official Shortlist

**Officer of Engineers** · 30 Apr 11,, 04:52

You have to ask the engineers but as far as I understand the term, you can treat the airframes as brand new.

But that being said, the airframe is obsolete. Even a brand new out of the factory MiG-21 is a sitting duck against a 30 year old F-16. There is only so much you can do with a 1950 tech airframe.

**n21** · 30 Apr 11,, 18:31

Originally Posted by Stitch

Isn't the IAF also looking at the C-17? I thought I read somewhere they were looking into acquiring 10 C-17's this year.

Yes they are. Hence I said Boeing has 14 billion dollars order in the works. C-17, a Boeing product. The number been looked at is 10 initial and 6 in second round of orders.

Just the famous ones on the list, 10+6 C-17, 12 C-130J, 8+(I think 4 more) P-8, M-777 howitzer, Javelin, most probably 22 Apaches and some Chinooks.

**alfa2bravo** · 01 May 11,, 10:19

If India goes for Eurofighter Typhoon. It needs to have a clear strategy to tackle ITAR if any future crisis rises. For Rafale such threat does not exist. India has long time strategic partnership with France. Recent deals in Nuclear sector has made it more strong. Buying ET will improve relationship with four major countries of Europe.Key thing to decide for India is that what they give more preference or importance. In technical aspect I don't think both exceeds each other capabilities.

**proud2bindian** · 01 May 11,, 14:20

I see the Rafale winning from here for sure because the AF Variant is great and Naval Variant is also operational.Also the commonality with Kaveri Engine and Mirage 2000.

**Sumku** · 09 May 11,, 18:32

Just out of Small Curiosity...Which one of the 2 is better......Eurofighter or Rafale ?

**Blademaster** · 09 May 11,, 18:40

Rafale is more suited to IAF's needs because Typhoon's main role is already taken up by the MKIs. What IAF needs is a strong modern A2G capability and that is what Rafale can bring. Ironically, if the MoD hadn't dragged its feet and made the MMRCA decision 5 years ago, IAF would have got the best non-USA A2G platform and that is the Mirages 2000-9s whose A2G capability is even better than the Rafale albeit there is a growth path that will allow Rafale to take over M2000-9's A2G role and improve on it substantially but the problem is that that is a long way off and it is not guaranteed that the French will make it happen.

The downside with Rafale is that India will get no offset benefits whatsoever despite Dassault's claim it could and the radar outfit is considerably smaller than the Typhoon due to its drastically smaller nose size. However, that can be minimized if IAF goes for large purchases of AEW&Cs and upgrade the datalinks on the MKIs and stay on the AESA upgrade for MKIs in the future. That way, IAF can utilize Rafale's low observable capability without compromising it with huge radar emissions that the current non AESA and AESA radars generate.

**Phoenix10** · 09 May 11,, 21:38

Blademaster put it well in saying "better suited to the IAF's needs". Both aircraft are capable and both have their strengths and weaknesses. It's all about how each aircraft meets the IAF's needs for performance, life cycle cost, logistics, future growth, CONOPS, etc. As some have stated, politics and preferences may come into play also.

**calass** · 09 May 11,, 22:36

Originally Posted by Stitch

I am disappointed that the IAF did not pick the F-18E/F/G, especially with the warming relations between the US Gov't and the Indian gov't; I think that, overall, it was the most qualified contender. I see the Typhoon winning this procurement process, and the Indians being disappointed in the ToT and the product support (or, rather, lack thereof).

After the wikileaks exposes of the American embassy cables in India..it would have been political suicide to choose an American product.
A pity though..the F-18 was ideal.

**Blademaster** · 09 May 11,, 23:21

Originally Posted by calass

After the wikileaks exposes of the American embassy cables in India..it would have been political suicide to choose an American product.
A pity though..the F-18 was ideal.

The avionics and weapons suite was ideal but the platform wasn't and the F-18's aerial performance received negative marks. IAF probably felt that Rafale with its promised upgraded avionics could do the job better than F-18E/F/G could. Also American were offering a downgraded version when the French offered the full version.

**Tronic** · 09 May 11,, 23:57

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Ironically, if the MoD hadn't dragged its feet and made the MMRCA decision 5 years ago, IAF would have got the best non-USA A2G platform and that is the Mirages 2000-9s whose A2G capability is even better than the Rafale albeit there is a growth path that will allow Rafale to take over M2000-9's A2G role and improve on it substantially but the problem is that that is a long way off and it is not guaranteed that the French will make it happen.

India's present Mirage 2000s are to be upgraded to Mirage-2000-5 mk2/Mirage-2000-9 standards, so either way, IAF is getting the capabilities of both the aircraft.

**gunnut** · 10 May 11,, 01:11

Originally Posted by Blademaster

The avionics and weapons suite was ideal but the platform wasn't and the F-18's aerial performance received negative marks. IAF probably felt that Rafale with its promised upgraded avionics could do the job better than F-18E/F/G could. Also American were offering a downgraded version when the French offered the full version.

Yeah but it's still French...

**Blademaster** · 10 May 11,, 04:18

Originally Posted by Tronic

India's present Mirage 2000s are to be upgraded to Mirage-2000-5 mk2/Mirage-2000-9 standards, so either way, IAF is getting the capabilities of both the aircraft.

The problem with that is now you got two types of planes to deal with when you could have streamline the process and only have one fewer type of plane to deal with.

**Skywatcher** · 10 May 11,, 04:27

Originally Posted by Blademaster

The downside with Rafale is that India will get no offset benefits whatsoever despite Dassault's claim it could and the radar outfit is considerably smaller than the Typhoon due to its drastically smaller nose size. However, that can be minimized if IAF goes for large purchases of AEW&Cs and upgrade the datalinks on the MKIs and stay on the AESA upgrade for MKIs in the future. That way, IAF can utilize Rafale's low observable capability without compromising it with huge radar emissions that the current non AESA and AESA radars generate.

The problem is, the Rafales don't have much of a Plan B if the AEW&C gets shot down. The Typhoons could simply turn on their radars in that case, while the Rafale would have to make do with a smaller one.

**Blademaster** · 10 May 11,, 04:29

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

The problem is, the Rafales don't have much of a Plan B if the AEW&C gets shot down. The Typhoons could simply turn on their radars in that case, while the Rafale would have to make do with a smaller one.

You have the MKIs that can fill the role temporarily. Besides, the IAF's AEW&Cs (the Phalcons) won't be sent into the battle space. Perhaps the smaller ones which the DRDO is developing would go tangentially to the battlespace but that's it. I think IAF plans to get up to around 12 Phalcons and 26 smaller AEW&C based on the Embraer platform.

**Officer of Engineers** · 10 May 11,, 05:53

Originally Posted by Blademaster

You have the MKIs that can fill the role temporarily. Besides, the IAF's AEW&Cs (the Phalcons) won't be sent into the battle space. Perhaps the smaller ones which the DRDO is developing would go tangentially to the battlespace but that's it. I think IAF plans to get up to around 12 Phalcons and 26 smaller AEW&C based on the Embraer platform.

That is NOT a plan B. Once your assets are in the air, the other side already knows your game plan.