Thread: Canada and the F-35

Originally Posted by jlvfr

Maybe I'm missing something... cause I don't see anything special there...?

Range, considering the size of Canada and it's air defence area, is obviously an issue. So I guess the Gripen is out. But I don't know why the Rafale should be.

Upgradeability, survivability, and sustainability.

The F-35 does not need to be upgraded to match the criteria of the F-35. It is the standard. Its lower RCS means that it is a smaller target than the RAFALE could ever be. What's more, we can replace a lost F-35 much easier, either by taking one from the American or allied reserves or buying the next one off the production line instead of waiting on a special order.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Upgradeability, survivability, and sustainability.

The F-35 does not need to be upgraded to match the criteria of the F-35. It is the standard. Its lower RCS means that it is a smaller target than the RAFALE could ever be. What's more, we can replace a lost F-35 much easier, either by taking one from the American or allied reserves or buying the next one off the production line instead of waiting on a special order.

RCS depends on it's stealth still being... stealth by 2035. I doubt it. Upgradability is a byworld of every modern fighter, so nothing new there. Survivability... 2 engines vs 1. That helps...

What you have there is not a mission requirement, as "we need a plane that can do this and this", it's a circular argument "we need the F-35 cause it's the good one cause the F-35 says so". That entire site reads like a fan-site for the F-35...

And note: I'm not saying "get the Rafale cause it's better than the F-35", I'm saying "is the F-35 the best plane for a country that needs a long range air-air fighter?

Originally Posted by jlvfr

RCS depends on it's stealth still being... stealth by 2035. I doubt it. Upgradability is a byworld of every modern fighter, so nothing new there. Survivability... 2 engines vs 1. That helps...

It is still smaller than the RAFALE no matter how you look at it.

Originally Posted by jlvfr

What you have there is not a mission requirement, as "we need a plane that can do this and this", it's a circular argument "we need the F-35 cause it's the good one cause the F-35 says so". That entire site reads like a fan-site for the F-35...

It reads that way simply because Canada was involved from day 1. Canada was involved in the design specs to the point that the Canadian Wing Commanders are inherantly very knowledgable about the plane's capabilities even before they take delivery.

This is NOT a start from scratch project from Canada nor many allies, including the UK. We paid to be involved in the project and have a say in it.

Left unsaid in all of this is that Canada will be involved industrially in this project and given the customer base of the F-35 versus the other two planes even if we could get production rights to these two other planes (doubtful), it would be political suicide for any government to reject this economic benefit.

F-35 is not French.

Originally Posted by jlvfr

Maybe I'm missing something... cause I don't see anything special there...?

Range, considering the size of Canada and it's air defence area, is obviously an issue. So I guess the Gripen is out. But I don't know why the Rafale should be.

Unless the Canadians are seriously interested in protecting Polar bears from soviet bombers, or think that its worthwhile defending - which seems rather pointless - Wiki says that 51% of it's pop, and the most heavily industrialised zone is the windsor corridor which is 1550 km's long.

Canada's defence issues are much the same as Australias, assessing realistic threat, and where that threat comes from, and what to.

You can fly all day long over enemy territory, but if theres nothing to bomb, then there's no point other than ego flagging. I wouldn't envy an agressor trying to get to the bits that mattered.

Canada's interopability with other forces also matters to it. It needs a Rafail like it needs a hole in it's head. The French can't sell that platform to anyone. Why be part of a coalition effort with a orphan platform.

Originally Posted by Chunder

Unless the Canadians are seriously interested in protecting Polar bears from soviet bombers, or think that its worthwhile defending - which seems rather pointless -

Sorry Chunder, but ALL CANADIAN TERRITORY is worth defending.

Originally Posted by Chunder

Wiki says that 51% of it's pop, and the most heavily industrialised zone is the windsor corridor which is 1550 km's long.

During the Cold War, Soviet bombers would have been challenged by Canadian fighters with nuke tip missiles right at the border, not deep into Canadian airspace. Today, Russian bombers would never be allowed into our air space without permission. The Americans are no longer required to defend our air space. That is our job and our job alone.

Originally Posted by Chunder

Canada's defence issues are much the same as Australias, assessing realistic threat, and where that threat comes from, and what to.

This part I agree. Only our threat comes from the Russian PAK-FA and yours from the Chinese J-20.

Originally Posted by Chunder

You can fly all day long over enemy territory, but if theres nothing to bomb, then there's no point other than ego flagging. I wouldn't envy an agressor trying to get to the bits that mattered.

Well, like you, the enemy has to fly over 1000s of kms of nothing to reach targets of value ... but that does not mean that we will not shoot them down before they get to our borders.

Originally Posted by Chunder

Canada's interopability with other forces also matters to it. It needs a Rafail like it needs a hole in it's head. The French can't sell that platform to anyone. Why be part of a coalition effort with a orphan platform.

That much is true. Air Command was never impressed with the RAEALE. The only other plane in contention was the SUPERBUG and that was only because our bugs may die of old age before we take delivery of the first electric bolt.

Originally Posted by gunnut

F-35 is not French.

And that is probably one of it's selling points, to be sure. Politics work heavily behind these decisions...