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Thread: House votes to cut second F-35 engine

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    Senior Contributor HKDan's Avatar
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    House votes to cut second F-35 engine

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/us....html?_r=1&hpw

    WASHINGTON — In a sign that some freshman Republicans are willing to cut military spending, the House voted 233-198 on Wednesday to cancel an alternate fighter jet engine that the Bush and Obama administrations had tried to kill for the last five years.
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    The vote was another instance in which some of the new legislators, including members of the Tea Party, broke ranks with the House speaker, John A. Boehner, a Republican from Ohio, where the engine provided more than 1,000 jobs.

    Many of the 87 freshman Republicans in the House had initially been hesitant to trim military spending as part of their drive to reduce the budget deficit.

    But after forcing Mr. Boehner and other Republican leaders to propose greater cuts in domestic programs, the freshmen agreed last week to include $16 billion in military cuts in this year’s spending bill.

    Wednesday’s vote to cancel the alternate engine for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter would cut an additional $450 million and save up to $3 billion over the next several years.

    The vote was a victory for President Obama and the defense secretary, Robert M. Gates, who had called the engine wasteful at a time when the Pentagon budget was flattening out. Yet it could also signal trouble for Mr. Gates, who has complained that the Pentagon could face a short-term crisis if the Republicans go ahead with $16 billion in additional military cuts this year.

    In voting to cancel the engine, some of the Republican freshmen formed an unusual alliance with liberal Democrats, who have opposed many of the Republican proposals for cuts in domestic programs.

    The Joint Strike Fighter is the military’s most expensive program, and its engines could cost up to $100 billion if the Pentagon and allied nations buy several thousand of the planes.

    Pratt & Whitney, a unit of United Technologies, is already building an F-35 engine in Connecticut. But Congress had long insisted on the development of a second engine to provide competition and try to reduce the price on purchases that could eventually reach $100 billion.

    The alternate engine was being built by General Electric and Rolls-Royce, which had spent $3 billion on it so far and would have needed perhaps $2 billion to $3 billion more to complete it.

    G.E. said it would take the fight to save the alternate engine to the Senate, which has not been as supportive as the House.

    Top Democratic senators, like Carl Levin of Michigan, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, and Senator Daniel K. Inouye of Hawaii, the chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, have generally backed the engine, while John McCain of Arizona and other Republicans have repeatedly sought to block it.

    Mr. Obama described the engine as a symbol of waste at the Pentagon shortly after he took office in 2009. But while he and Mr. Gates have won Congressional support to cancel or trim more than two dozen other military programs, a bipartisan group of House veterans had dug in to support the second engine.

    Some liberals recently sought to portray the alternate engine as an expensive example of earmarked spending by Mr. Boehner, the new House speaker, whose home state of Ohio would benefit from jobs.

    But with the Democrats in control, the House had voted 231 to 193 last May to keep the project alive, even though President Obama had threatened a veto. In that vote, 116 Republicans and 115 Democrats stuck with the engine.

    In Wednesday’s vote, 123 Democrats and 110 Republicans voted to kill the engine.

    The fight over the project had long broken down over regional rather than party lines, based on where the manufacturing and supply jobs would be.

    Like many military contractors. G.E. and Rolls-Royce were spreading the work to more than 15 states, promising more than 4,000 jobs, including 400 each in Indiana and Massachusetts. But Pratt & Whitney had said the second engine would simply shift many of the jobs from its operations in Connecticut, Florida and Texas.

    And companies’ executives said this week that the lobbying had been intense, with both sides fighting for support from the freshman legislators, many of whom knew little or nothing about the engine fight until now.

    Relatively few of the freshmen announced their views publicly or spoke up during the floor debate on the issue Tuesday, adding to the suspense about which way the vote would go.

    But the second engine also had won support over the years from veteran lawmakers who recalled “The Great Engine War” that developed in the 1980s after problems surfaced with an engine that Pratt & Whitney had built for the F-16 fighter jet.

    The Air Force asked G.E. to create an alternate engine for that plane. A study by the Government Accountability Office later suggested that the competition had led to better engines and saved 20 percent over time, and G.E.’s supporters had contended that an alternate engine for the F-35 could produce similar results.

    The F-35 is the Pentagon’s largest program and could end up costing nearly $400 billion over all. Congress had been financing the second engine for years partly to keep Pratt & Whitney from enjoying a lucrative monopoly and as insurance against any defects that might ground the fleet.

    But in recent years, Donald H. Rumsfeld, President Bush’s first defense secretary, and Mr. Gates, who has served in both the Bush and Obama administrations, had questioned whether the second engine would produce enough savings in the long run and argued that the Pentagon needed the money for other projects.

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    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    A second engine was clearly unneeded and not wanted by the military. Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, testified today against it, and here is what SecDef Gates had to say today:

    At this point, I'd like to address the ongoing debate over the JSF extra engine. As most of you know, the president and I -- and the previous president and his secretary of defense -- as well as the department's senior military leadership have consistently and firmly expressed our opposition to continuing this costly program. We consider it an unnecessary and extravagant expense, particularly during a period of fiscal contraction.

    The Congress has not spoken with one voice on this matter. And the department has been operating this fiscal year under ambiguous guidance at best.
    Under those circumstances, I decided to continue funding the JSF extra engine effort on a month-to-month basis. I did this not because we had to, but because we chose to give Congress the opportunity to resolve this matter as a part of its ongoing debate of the budget.

    However, this also means the American taxpayers are spending $28 million a month for an excess and unjustified program that is slated for termination. The president, military services, and I continue to oppose this extra engine, and when the current C.R. expires, I will look at all available legal options to close down this program. It would be a waste of nearly $3 billion in a time of economic distress, and the money is needed for higher-priority defense efforts.
    JCS Speech: House Armed Services Committee Hearing on 2012 DoD Budget Request
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    Shortsighted. Any fault in the F135 grounds the entire fast jet fleet for all services.

    Obama's threatening to veto the CR anyway.

    Here's an offset for the $500 million a year we are spending on the F136.

    Cut the number of lawyers at the DOD from the current 10,000 down to 5,000. Savings $1 Billion a year.

    Saves the F136 and cuts the deficit too.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    A second engine is unneeded...by all accounts the engine is one of the highlights of the F-35. Having two engines does nothing for the F-16 except add complexity to the loggie chain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea View Post
    Cut the number of lawyers at the DOD from the current 10,000 down to 5,000. Savings $1 Billion a year.

    Saves the F136 and cuts the deficit too.
    Thank Robert Mcnamara for expanding the general DoD bureaucracy.

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    I was an advocate of the second engine for the same reasons that Highsea mentioned, when we had the money. In the currently fiscal climate duplication has to go. If they are gonna cut something from the F-35 I'd rather it be the second engine than something else.

    How many fighters built since the late 1970s had 2 fully funded engine programs at this stage of development?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
    A second engine is unneeded...by all accounts the engine is one of the highlights of the F-35. Having two engines does nothing for the F-16 except add complexity to the loggie chain.
    Wrong. It adds a second source supplier in case of strike, sabotage, or price gouging.

    Clearly you have never been in business for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix10 View Post
    I was an advocate of the second engine for the same reasons that Highsea mentioned, when we had the money. In the currently fiscal climate duplication has to go. If they are gonna cut something from the F-35 I'd rather it be the second engine than something else.

    How many fighters built since the late 1970s had 2 fully funded engine programs at this stage of development?
    The F-15 and F-16 did. Nothing since has, but every fighter program since has been a blueprint for how not to buy an aircraft, as far as cost goes.
    Last edited by Bill; 17 Feb 11, at 19:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Wrong. It adds a second source supplier in case of strike, sabotage, or price gouging.
    Are any of these likely, or even on the horizon?

    Clearly you have never been in business for yourself.
    So, you'd open a second store just as a backup for the first? Or would you open a second store on the expection of a return on the investment? I suspect #2. There's no likely return on the RR engine. We're talking about Pratt & Whitney...a company that has been sourcing our engines for decades with an incredible reputation built over those years, not the NFL Player's Association.

    I'm not going to spend a hundred bucks a month on earthquake insurance while I live in the midwest. Is there a chance for earthquake damage? Technically, yes. We get mild ones from time to time. But how significant is the risk of a situation arising where the return outweighs the investment? Not very. Not in my hypothetical earthquake, and not in the $3B+ duplication of effort on F-35 engines.


    The F-15 and F-16 did. Nothing since has, but every fighter program since has been a blueprint for how not to buy an aircraft, as far as cost goes.
    And every fighter program since has been run out of one of those white buildings (one with columns and the other with a dome) rather than the 5-sided building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
    Are any of these likely, or even on the horizon?
    Yes, price gouging is extremely common in all markets, and strikes are a reality of life

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
    So, you'd open a second store just as a backup for the first? Or would you open a second store on the expection of a return on the investment? I suspect #2. There's no likely return on the RR engine. We're talking about Pratt & Whitney...a company that has been sourcing our engines for decades with an incredible reputation built over those years, not the NFL Player's Association.
    You are missing my point. I would absolutely maintain a relationship with two wholesalers to stock the shelves of my stores, to keep them honest and so that i could price shop.

    Just like as a consumer i regularly shop at a variety of stores in the same market, looking for the best prices.

    There is another term for single source supplier....monopoly.

    I think we can all agree those are bad.
    Last edited by Bill; 17 Feb 11, at 21:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Yes, price gouging is extremely common in all markets, and strikes are a reality of life
    Defense acquisition is all about price gouging. But spending $3B+ is not going to save us $3B+. This is the bottom line.

    You are missing my point. I would absolutely maintain a relationship with two wholesalers to stock the shelves of my stores, to keep them honest and so that i could price shop.

    Just like as a consumer i regularly shop at a variety of stores in the same market, looking for the best prices.

    There is another term for single source supplier....monopoly.

    I think we can all agree those are bad.
    The military can't afford to buy two of everything. That's absurd. Do you have any indication of wrongdoing on the part of PW, or any specific indication of an upcoming work stoppage? If not, this is a tremendous waste of money. We didn't buy the X-32 to keep Boeing honest. We trusted that they wouldn't F us over any worse than normal. Why? Because despite what the average session of Congress believes, we're not made of money.

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    I think both of you are right.
    Competition is prerequisite for avoiding price-gouging and inciting technical progress. But in the long run, maintaining duplication of suppliers of all military systems is untenable.

    I have an example from Russian realities:
    Initially, there was a single designer of the Al-31 engine for the Su-27 family of aircraft - KB Saturn.
    Later, the manufacturer of the engine, the Salyut company, had established its own design bureau and begun a three-phase development program to upgrade the Al-31.
    That had incited an intense competition between the two design bureaus, sometimes even to the level of personal insults. But eventually both bureaus have achieved amazing results, brining the thrust of their latest iterations of the engine, which are undergoing tests now, to 155 kN from the initial 123 kN rate. Though previously, Saturn had no plans to upgrade the engine beyond 140-145 kN of thrust.
    Unfortunately, such situation can not last forever. Eventually, the Ministry of Defense has to choose whose engine will be powering its fleet (apparently, it will be the Saturn's product). The loser (the Salyut in this case) has to stop its program or pay for it out of its own pockets.
    The competition will end and the pace of the technical progress will slow down.
    Last edited by andrew; 18 Feb 11, at 11:06.

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    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Andrew may be right; I don't know if P&W ever had any intention of pushing the F-100-PW-220 past 25K lbs. of thrust until GE came out with the F-110, but it was rather coincidental that P&W was able to coax 29K out of the F-100 AFTER GE introduced the F-110.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post
    ...But spending $3B+ is not going to save us $3B+. This is the bottom line.
    I think the GAO has disagreed with you Jimmy. They estimated a $20 Billion dollar saving over the life of the program. That estimate is based on the experience from the F-16 engine competition.

    We will spend $100 Billion on JSF engines. GE needs another $1 Billion to finish development of F136. They are confident enough in this to offer a fixed price contract, which means they will assume all cost overruns if they're wrong.

    Pratt is $1.9 Billion over plan according to GAO, and projections say $12.7 Billion over the program life.

    There would also be a savings in operating costs, F136 is getting 15% more thrust than spec due to a larger fan and hot section. This translates into lower operating temperatures, which means longer life. Pratt is working on reducing the operating temps, but the smaller fan and hot section on F135 makes this difficult to achieve.

    I'm not just thinking of JSF, I am also thinking of the next generation fighter. I believe the F136 just has a lot more potential than the F135, and I hate to see it shut down this late in the game.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    a number of the concerns expressed to ashton carter when he had discussions in australia recently was the fact that sole source supplying invariably meant that inherent risks were elevated, that it ran the risk of holding the customers hostage at a commercial level, and that extra competition bought its own benefits.

    there are clear benefits in the through life costings to have multiple suppliers and unfort I'd argue that having sole source critical component vendors has led to those vendors being treated like pandas - ie a protected species which may do no wrong
    Last edited by gf0012-aust; 19 Feb 11, at 03:15. Reason: sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea View Post
    I think the GAO has disagreed with you Jimmy. They estimated a $20 Billion dollar saving over the life of the program. That estimate is based on the experience from the F-16 engine competition.

    We will spend $100 Billion on JSF engines. GE needs another $1 Billion to finish development of F136. They are confident enough in this to offer a fixed price contract, which means they will assume all cost overruns if they're wrong.

    Pratt is $1.9 Billion over plan according to GAO, and projections say $12.7 Billion over the program life.

    There would also be a savings in operating costs, F136 is getting 15% more thrust than spec due to a larger fan and hot section. This translates into lower operating temperatures, which means longer life. Pratt is working on reducing the operating temps, but the smaller fan and hot section on F135 makes this difficult to achieve.

    I'm not just thinking of JSF, I am also thinking of the next generation fighter. I believe the F136 just has a lot more potential than the F135, and I hate to see it shut down this late in the game.
    Then they need to PICK one. Having two engines is what I'm railing against, not one in particular. I don't have a horse in that race.

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