Rani Lakshmibai

I've heard that the US is trying to block the sale of Israel's Arrow II SAM systems to India because the Americans are busy trying to sell India their own Patriot PAC-2 missles. Assuming that the PAC-3 SAMs are better, may I take it that the US is trying to foist an older version of the Patriot missle on India? Are Arrow II systems made with US help that the Americans should have veto power on it?

Oh btw, somebody clarify for me, I've heard that the Arrow II SAM systems can shoot down tangoes at upto 100,000 m altitude versus the Patriot PAC-2 which has a max reach of 20,000 m. True? Or not?


And this is also related this topic: I don't know much about Phalcon or P3C Orions AWACS systems, but which one is better? I've heard that the Phalcon doesn't have the rotodome and so its better but I have my doubts....

scoop

The Arrow 2 theatre ballistic missile defence system has been developed by the MLM Division of Israel Aircraft Industries and is in operation with the Israeli Defence Forces

the Arrow 2, with a launch weight of 1,300kg, which was first tested in 1995. Arrow 2 has successfully acquired, tracked and destroyed TM-91 Arrow missile targets from ranges of 60km and 100km. Further Arrow Weapon System developments have been planned and will be funded by Israel and the USA.

IAI signed an agreement with Boeing to establish the production infrastructure to manufacture components of the Arrow missile in the US. Boeing will be responsible for the production of approximately 50% of the missile components in the US. Boeing will produce various missile components and co-ordinate the production of existing Arrow missile components already being manufactured by more than 150 American companies

The Arrow missile, a joint international project with Israel, is a long-range interceptor that offers the United States technology infusion

The system's development is jointly funded by the United States and Israel. Since 1988, the United States has provided Israel with more than $628 million in grants for research and development of the Arrow through the defense budget. When fully deployed, Israel will have paid for 60% of the program, which is ultimately expected to cost about $1 billion.



The Arrow Weapon System features a state-of-the-art EL/M2080 L-band radar, Green Pine.

India has placed an order for the supply of two Elta Green Pine for use with India's air defence system against ballistic missiles. The first was delivered in 2001. The Green Pine Radar system is already deployed in India. The radar system, developed for Israel's Arrow anti-missile missile, is a transportable ground-based multimode solid-state phased array radar, capable of predicting impact points of incoming tactical ballistic missiles.

Missile
Missile length 7.0m
Missile diameter 800mm
Missile launch weight 1,300kg
Launch canisters per launcher 6
Radar
Radar frequency L band
Detection range 500km
Target speed Over 3km/s
Missile guidance to distance from target 4m from target
Missile Performance
Missile velocity Mach 9
Maximum range 70.0km
Maximum range of flight 90.0km
Minimum altitude 8,000m
Maximum altitude 50,000m


source:http://www.army-technology.com

Arrow 2 definatly has american components & israel needs american go ahead to sell to india

remember india had to wait for american go ahead for the phalcon system.

about the phalcon
India and Israel signed an agreement in January 2004 on the sale of three Phalcon early warning radar .The IAF plans to mount the Phalcon radar and surveillance systems from IAI on IL-76 aircraft supplied by Russia.

p3c orion is an LRMPS, AWAC is Airborne Warning and Control System

highsea

Rani- The PAC-2 missile has longer range than PAC-3. PAC-3 is better at intercepting BM's. Much of the Arrow is built in the US, Boeing builds most of the missile, and there is a lot of other US tech in it, so yes, the US has veto power over sales.

100,000 meters? 300,000 feet? Lol, no.

P-3C is an ASW and marine reconnaissance platform, not an AEW&C platform, so they cannot be compared. You are confusing the E-3 Sentry with the P-3C Orion. A comparison of the E-3 and Phalcon would be time consuming, they have similar roles, but different capabilities.

E-3:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/e3awacs/

Phalcon:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/phalcon.htm

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Rani Lakshmibai

Darn! My mistake, you are right I did mistake the E-3 with the Phalcon. That should be a lesson to me: Do not type up posts at 3 AM and expect it to be conherent

Thanks for the info. Hmmm.... "Arrow 2 has successfully acquired, tracked and destroyed TM-91 Arrow missile targets from ranges of 60km and 100km." From scoop's article. The Arrow II shot down incoming at 100 km or 100,000 m. That's pretty good, it that better than PAC-2?

And do the PAC-2 AND PAC-3 work in tandem? Compensating for each other's weaknesses?

ZFBoxcar

The Arrow does longer range than the PAC, but the PAC does short range work better I hear. As a result, Israel uses both so that the PAC can pick up anything the Arrow misses (I'm not sure which version of the PAC Israel uses).

highsea

Rani- 100km range is a very different thing than 100km altitude. Read your OP again. Yes, PAC batteries have both missile types.

ZF- I think the Patriot batteries in Israel have both missiles, PAC-2 and PAC-3

scoop

A new Patriot Advanced Capability (PAC-3) missile has increased effectiveness against tactical ballistic and cruise missiles, through the use of advanced hit-to-kill technology. The PAC-3 has a Ka-band millimetre wave seeker developed by Boeing. The missile guidance system enables target destruction through the kinetic energy released by hitting the target head-on.

but me think the patriot missile system as such is flawed. It was first devoloped as an anti aircraft missile a few decades ago,until raytheon decided to modify it to shoot down missiles.there are numerous accounts of the patriot shooting down freindly aircraft,goto http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in601241.shtml
for story. also there are a lot of software problems with the system.

Rani Lakshmibai

Since I'm no expert on these matters, would you kindly tell me what the difference between 100 km range and 100 km altitude?

Isn't (or at least, Shouldn't) a 100 km altitude be pointing the 100 km ranged missile straight up?

highsea

The maximum range is the distance the missile can make an intercept on a (more or less) ballistic flight profile, when the target is approaching the launcher.

The Arrow-2 is advertised as this: The intercept altitudes are from a minimum of 10km up to a maximum of 50km. The maximum intercept range is approx. 90km.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/arrow2/
No. It can't fight gravity continuously and be expected to have the same range.

A SAM profile looks something like this:
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviatio...siles/sam.html

Attached Images

	sam profile.JPG (54.3 KB, 163 views)
	SAM profile2.JPG (15.3 KB, 161 views)

Anon

"but me think the patriot missile system as such is flawed. It was first devoloped as an anti aircraft missile a few decades ago,until raytheon decided to modify it to shoot down missiles.there are numerous accounts of the patriot shooting down freindly aircraft,goto http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004...ain601241.shtml
for story. also there are a lot of software problems with the system."

That's an IFF issue.

Also, the PAC-3 is a COMPLETELY different missile than the PAC-I and II.