Thread: ASELPOD to become operational mid-2011

Wow! It looks JUST like an AN/AAQ-14 LANTIRN! What a coincidence!

Originally Posted by denizkuvetleri

ASELSAN began developing the ASELPOD in 2005 after Turkish Air Force officials were not satisfied with the performance of the Sniper ATP they had procured.

Very interesting, since Sniper received IOC in April 2006....

Foolish Turkish Air Force Officials spend $118 Million on junky Sniper Pods.....

Lockheed Martin Awarded $118 Million Contract To Provide Sniper® Advanced Targeting Pods and LANTIRN ER Navigation Pods To Turkish Air Force

ORLANDO, FL, January 6th, 2010 -- Lockheed Martin has signed a foreign military sales contract to deliver Sniper® Advanced Targeting Pods (ATPs) and LANTIRN™ Enhanced Resolution (ER) navigation pods to the Turkish Air Force. Valued at $118 million, the contract will provide Sniper ATP and LANTIRN ER navigation pods to equip Turkish Air Force F-16 Block 40 and Block 50 Peace Onyx aircraft.

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Lockheed Martin Awarded $118 Million Contract To Provide Sniper® Advanced Targeting Pods and LANTIRN ER Navigation Pods To Turkish Air Force | Lockheed Martin

Originally Posted by highsea

Foolish Turkish Air Force Officials spend $118 Million on junky Sniper Pods.....

The January 6, 2010 acquisition is for the 30 new F-16's Turkey is acquiring. The USA does not allow integration of indegenous Turkish systems onto the newly purchased falcons.

Turkey was one of the first countries to have the LITENING pods.

Why would Turkey buy more of a targeting pod it is not happy with ? There are other alternatives on the market, fully compatible and in use with F-16.

Originally Posted by denizkuvetleri

The January 6, 2010 acquisition is for the 30 new F-16's Turkey is acquiring. The USA does not allow integration of indegenous Turkish systems onto the newly purchased falcons.

The 30 new frames are Block 50 C/D's. The Lockheed Press release says the Sniper ATP's are for Block 40's and Block 50's. So obviously some of the new Sniper pods will be used on existing frames.

Originally Posted by denizkuvetleri

Turkey was one of the first countries to have the LITENING pods.

But that's not what you said, is it? You said Turkish officials were dissatisfied with the Sniper ATP's they acquired prior to 2005, and that was the rationale to build the ASELPOD.

In 2005 the Sniper ATP was in IOT&E with the USAF in Iraq. A handful of them. The Sniper ATP didn't get IOC until 2006, which means your statement is flatly wrong.

I don't care what Turkey makes or doesn't make. If you can't get your facts straight, I will continue to correct you.

Originally Posted by highsea

The 30 new frames are Block 50 C/D's. The Lockheed Press release says the Sniper ATP's are for Block 40's and Block 50's. So obviously some of the new Sniper pods will be used on existing frames.

But that's not what you said, is it? You said Turkish officials were dissatisfied with the Sniper ATP's they acquired prior to 2005, and that was the rationale to build the ASELPOD.

In 2005 the Sniper ATP was in IOT&E with the USAF in Iraq. A handful of them. The Sniper ATP didn't get IOC until 2006, which means your statement is flatly wrong.

I don't care what Turkey makes or doesn't make. If you can't get your facts straight, I will continue to correct you.

Highsea, I am just merely quoting Turkish sources.

They could have mixed up the Sniper ATP with the LANTIRN pod....I don't know to be honest.

N.B. The ASELPOD is based on the ASELFLIR-300T which is used on the TAI/AGUSTA T129 ATAK, ANKA MALE UAV and Turkish HERON's etc.

ASELSAN ASELFLIR-300T Airborne FLIR
Manufacturer: ASELSAN Elektronik Sanayi ve Ticaret A.Þ.

Description : ASELFLIR-300T is a multi-sensor 3rd generation electro-optical targeting and surveillance system. ASELFLIR-300T fulfills multiple mission requirements including; Pilotage / Navigation, Surveillance, Target Search, Track, Locate and Designation.

Having a flexible hardware and software design architecture, the system can be used on different platforms ranging from rotary, fixed wing and unmanned air vehicles to naval ships.

ASELFLIR-300T System includes a High Resolution Infra Red (IR) Camera, a Laser Rangefinder / Designator (LRF/D), a Laser Spot Tracker (LST), a Color TV Camera and a Color Spotter Camera. The system consists of the following Weapons Replaceable Assemblies (WRAs); Turret Unit (TU), Electronics Unit (EU), Hand Control Unit (HCU), Boresight Module (BSM).

Specifications : Parameter : ASELFLIR-300T
Automatic Target Recognition system
Thermal Camera FOVs : Wide FOV: 22.5 x 30 degrees (+/-10 percent)
Medium FOV: 4.8 x 6.4 degrees (+/-10 percent) Narrow FOV: 1.32 x 1.75 degrees (+/-10 percent)
IR Detector : 7 x 576 Focal Plane Array
IR Detection Band : 7.6 -10.5 micrometers
Digital Zoom : 2x or 4x
Video Tracking : Multi Target
Image Resolution : 1440 (H) x 576 (W)
Day-TV Camera FOVs : 40 degrees to 2 degrees (optical continuous) and 12x (digital)
Spotter Camera : Fixed Focal Length, 0.7 x 0.9 degree (+/-10 percent)
Laser Range Finder : Up to 20 km, ± 15 m resolution
Gimbal Field of Regard : Azimuth: 360 degrees continuous
Elevation: min. 20 degrees up; 105 degrees down
Gimbal Angular Speed : Up to 3 rad/second
Gimbal Angular Position : < 2 mrad (RMS) <br>
Environmental Conditions : MIL-E-5400
Communication Interface : MIL-STD-1553 / RS-422
Video Output : 3 Analog composite (50 Hz) and a Digital output
Cooling / Heating : Internal
Weight : Turret Unit: 93 kg (full configuration)
Electronic Unit: 23 kg
Dimensions : Turret Unit: 633 mm (height) x 526 mm (diameter)
Electronic Unit: 315 mm (width) x 470 mm (length) x 255

http://defenceproducts.ssm.gov.tr/Pa...catId=1&pId=47

ASELSAN began developing the ASELPOD in 2005 after Turkish Air Force officials were not satisfied with the performance of the Sniper ATP they had procured.

Highsea, I am just merely quoting Turkish sources.

Please provide link, where Turkish officials declared dissatisfaction with Sniper ATP.

The January 6, 2010 acquisition is for the 30 new F-16's Turkey is acquiring. The USA does not allow integration of indegenous Turkish systems onto the newly purchased falcons.

The recent purchase was for Block 50+ C/D models. You state that USA does not allow integration of indegenous Turkish systems onto the newly purchased falcons. My understanding is that you are referring to the recent block 50+ A/C. Please provide link/further information why this integration is not allowed.

Also would you care to discuss why they would allow integration of such systems on Block 30/40 falcons (which are being upgraded), but not on block 50+ ? How about earlier block 50 A/C purchased after 1996 ?

A follow up; following the line of logic, is Turkey prevented from intergrating all indegenous systems on its F-16 fleet ? If not, what makes targeting pods unique ?

Originally Posted by Ucar

Please provide link, where Turkish officials declared dissatisfaction with Sniper ATP.

Afew SSIK meetings prior Vecdi Gonul made a statement which was broadcast on HaberTurk where he stated:

(a) They are having problems with the new Falcon purchase due to not being given access to the source code;
(b) Not being able to integrate Turkish sub-systems;
(c) The need to develop an alternative to the Sniper ATP (I think he really meant LITENING) becuase it was not compatible with some Turkish weapons systems. I am assuming he was refering to the HASAS GUDUM KITI (AKA Turkish JDAM).

The other source which I managed to dig up is in English. Although, it does not go into the specifics it states that Turkey wanted to cancel the extra falcon purchase for lack of local work, non-transfer of source codes etc. Turkey may abandon buying US F-16s, turn to Europe
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-2332...er-planes.html
http://idrw.org/?p=2461


The recent purchase was for Block 50+ C/D models. You state that USA does not allow integration of indegenous Turkish systems onto the newly purchased falcons. My understanding is that you are referring to the recent block 50+ A/C. Please provide link/further information why this integration is not allowed.

Also would you care to discuss why they would allow integration of such systems on Block 30/40 falcons (which are being upgraded), but not on block 50+ ? How about earlier block 50 A/C purchased after 1996 ?

After a certain prescribed period of time the contracts allow Turkey to do whatever modifications it likes on the platforms (save as to the transfer to a third country without US approval). This was also the case with the F-4E and the subsequent modernization of such platform. You would also recall that Turkey recently began integrating Turkish mission computers onto it's Block 30 vipers: TuAF F-16 Block 30s to fly with Turkish computers | TRDEFENCE

A follow up; following the line of logic, is Turkey prevented from intergrating all indegenous systems on its F-16 fleet ? If not, what makes targeting pods unique? It is my understanding that with respect to the new batch of Block 50 falcons Turkey is only allowed to integrate whatever the contract allows it to integrate. The main problem here is again the mission computer source codes. Lockheed Martin did not give Turkey access to the mission computer source codes which would have allowed Turkey to integrate Turkish weapons etc. However, in a compromise reached with the US it is said that Lockheed Martin allowed "plug and play" modules to be fitted which would enable Turkey to integrate some approved Turkish systems without giving full access to the mission computer.

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Originally Posted by denizkuvetleri

...Highsea, I am just merely quoting Turkish sources.

Well, it's incorrect, and you have failed to substantiate it. Suggest you do a little more digging before making such dubious statements.

Originally Posted by denizkuvetleri

...(c) The need to develop an alternative to the Sniper ATP (I think he really meant LITENING) becuase it was not compatible with some Turkish weapons systems. I am assuming he was refering to the HASAS GUDUM KITI (AKA Turkish JDAM).

Why would you need a laser designator/IR pod to guide a GPS bomb? Those coordinates are programmed in before the plane leaves the ground.

As to integration of Turkish avionics, IIRC all the GPS/INS units on Turkish Vipers are locally made, so obviously it's not a blanket exclusion.

WRT to Turkey's Sniper ATP purchase- Morocco is getting 24 Block 52 Vipers. They also purchased Sniper ATP pods to equip those frames. The contract was $30 Million.

US purchases reflect a unit cost of ~$1.4 Million per copy.

You should be able to do the math, a contract for $118 Million is going to deliver a lot more than 30 targeting pods.

I will make one comment on the theory of a "plug and play" interface, which you have referred to wrt the F-35 and F-16. Don't know if you will understand this or not.

Manufacturers are sensitive to the reputation of their aircraft. The process for certifying weapons process is both extensive and expensive. We do not certify all possible weapons, nor do we certify them throughout the flight envelope of a particular aircraft.

It's not because we can't, or that the aircraft can't carry those weapons. It's because the cost is high, and the benefits aren't considered worth the money.

Manufacturers protect the source codes to prevent users from performing half-assed integrations which can cause crashes that reflect poorly on the aircraft. They also do not want to deal with claims from users for incidents that were caused by events out of their control.

So any "plug and play" integration will come with a very stringent set of rules that have to be adhered to wrt flight tests and release tests. This will be especially critical on the F-35, or users will be tearing ordinance off the pylons due to poor data given to the aircraft. And I can assure you that no internal weapons will be carried without Lockheed's certification, no matter what country.

This would all have been sorted out during SDD.

Originally Posted by highsea

Well, it's incorrect, and you have failed to substantiate it. Suggest you do a little more digging before making such dubious statements.

Why would you need a laser designator/IR pod to guide a GPS bomb? Those coordinates are programmed in before the plane leaves the ground.

As far as I know the Turkish JDAM's also use semi-active laser homing in addition to GPS guidance.

ASELSAN also produces Aselsan 2nd. generation coded laser guided bombs which I believe they wanted to integrate with the new batch of Falcons: Aselsan.com.tr - Laser Guided Bomb Kit

As to integration of Turkish avionics, IIRC all the GPS/INS units on Turkish Vipers are locally made, so obviously it's not a blanket exclusion.

Yes there is no blanket exclusion infact Turkey is not limited to indegenous GPS/INS units only, they use many other indegenous subsystems (e.g. IFF systems etc) in the VIPERS however, Turkey wanted access to the crtical technology that is the mission computer source codes.

WRT to Turkey's Sniper ATP purchase- Morocco is getting 24 Block 52 Vipers. They also purchased Sniper ATP pods to equip those frames. The contract was $30 Million.

US purchases reflect a unit cost of ~$1.4 Million per copy.

You should be able to do the math, a contract for $118 Million is going to deliver a lot more than 30 targeting pods.

I have to check my Turkish sources because I am pretty sure there was talk about integrating the ASELPOD on the remaining aircraft. That is, the ones undergoing CCIP modernization. It would be stupid for Turkey to procure two different branded sets of the same type of equipment.

I will make one comment on the theory of a "plug and play" interface, which you have referred to wrt the F-35 and F-16. Don't know if you will understand this or not.

Manufacturers are sensitive to the reputation of their aircraft. The process for certifying weapons process is both extensive and expensive. We do not certify all possible weapons, nor do we certify them throughout the flight envelope of a particular aircraft.

It's not because we can't, or that the aircraft can't carry those weapons. It's because the cost is high, and the benefits aren't considered worth the money.

Manufacturers protect the source codes to prevent users from performing half-assed integrations which can cause crashes that reflect poorly on the aircraft. They also do not want to deal with claims from users for incidents that were caused by events out of their control.

So any "plug and play" integration will come with a very stringent set of rules that have to be adhered to wrt flight tests and release tests. This will be especially critical on the F-35, or users will be tearing ordinance off the pylons due to poor data given to the aircraft. And I can assure you that no internal weapons will be carried without Lockheed's certification, no matter what country.

I agree and concur with all of the abovementioned. If I was Lockheed Martin I would do the same. However, I am taking from the Turkish perspective. Turkey believes that if it can get certification for its weapons it has a greater chance at export etc.
This would all have been sorted out during SDD.

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Follow up

defense giant lockheed martin corp., which announced plans to cut 1,200 jobs on wednesday, snagged a foreign military contract with the turkish air force for $118 million to provide sniper targeting and navigation pods for use on turkey’s f-16 block 40 and block 50 peace onyx aircraft.

The navigation pod is meant to improve image process by the aircraft’s technical systems, and the sniper pod will provide improved target detection and identification capabilities of both moving and still air and ground targets. –

on 2008 september 26, the defense security cooperation agency notified congress of a possible foreign military sale to turkey of an/aaq-33 sniper targeting pods and an/aaq-13 lantirn navigation pods as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $200 million.

The government of turkey has requested a possible sale of 30 an/aaq-33 sniper extended range targeting pods, 30 an/aaq-13 lantirn extended range navigation pods, containers, flight tests, integration, digital cartridge interface, spare and repair parts, support equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, u.s. Government and contractor representative technical and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of program support.

Lantirn is a system consisting of two pods which allow aircrew to fly their aircraft by day or night and in adverse meteorological conditions. It provides terrain-following radar (tfr), forward-looking infra-red (flir), targeting information for the aircraft’s on-board fire control system and target laser illumination. Lantirn is currently deployed on f-16c/d, f-15e/i/s and f-14 platforms. Over 1,400 pods are currently in service with 10 countries.

The turkish air force currently uses 40 complete lantirn systems for its f-16 fleet in the precision strike role. With this recent order the precision strike capabilities of the turkish air force are enhanced even further. At the same time turkey is developing a domestic targeting pod, the aselpod, with which it plans to equip fighters in the strike role.
Pods LANTIRN et SNIPER pour Ankara « Tower&#039;Sight – Open Source(s) Intelligence

From this we can deduce the following:

Turkey is procuring:
30 x AN/AAQ-33 Sniper extended range targeting pods,
30 x AN/AAQ-13 Lantirn extended range navigation pods

You would also recall Turkey is procuring 30 new Block 50 F-16. Hence, the Sniper and LITENING ATP is for the 30 new F-16 Block 50.

The rest of the fleet will use the ASELPOD.

Originally Posted by denizkuvetleri

....As far as I know the Turkish JDAM's also use semi-active laser homing in addition to GPS guidance.

The SAGE brochures do not support your assumption. It's a GPS/INS tailkit.

wrt the Sniper's. You are conflating the September 2008 DSCA request with the December 2009 contract. They are not the same thing. Breakout quantities were not specified in the contract, but the LM press release and ALL other published reports say the pods are to equip Block 40 AND Block 50's.

Originally Posted by highsea

The SAGE brochures do not support your assumption. It's a GPS/INS tailkit.

wrt the Sniper's. You are conflating the September 2008 DSCA request with the December 2009 contract. They are not the same thing. Breakout quantities were not specified in the contract, but the LM press release and ALL other published reports say the pods are to equip Block 40 AND Block 50's.

hmm, actually when you think about it you may be right. Turkey said it was integrating an indegenous mission computer on the F-16 Block 30's. Considering Turkey already has the source codes for the highly modernized F-4E Terminator 2020 and SIMSEK, then ASELPOD would be easily integrated onto these platforms. The Block 40 and 50 vipers are all undergoing CCIP upgrades as we speak, so it is logical for these to use the Sniper and LITENING ATP's.

Having said this however, this would mean a vast majority if not all of Turkey's fleet would be capable for precision strike missions.