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Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by denizkuvetleri
What country in the Gulf has Any real experience in designing a 4th generation fighter, let alone a 5th one?
Also, what is up with Turkey? Seems to be constantly trying to move away from other NATO members...
I don't understand this when several Turkish companies have already commenced producing critical parts for the JSF including the engine.Problems persist with the US on fighter planes
23 January 2011, Sunday / ERCAN YAVUZ, ANKARA
Problems persist with the US on fighter planes
Turkey is seriously reconsidering the myriad agreements it has signed with the US, as well as its participation in an international consortium for the procurement of new generation fighter jets, due to rising costs and persisting problems originating from the American side.
Turkey is now seeking new ways to sidestep difficulties in the procurement of F-16 fighter planes, which it has been jointly producing with the US since 1987, due to the delayed delivery by the US authorities of some of the plane’s parts and accessories. There have been serious doubts as to whether Turkey’s plan to purchase 100 F-35 fighter planes would ever materialize, as the country is thinking about withdrawing from the consortium following the hike in costs that resulted from other countries leaving from the consortium.
With 240 F-16s, Turkey has the third largest fleet of these fighter jets after the US and Israel. Turkey chose the F-16 to use in its air force in the early 1980s, and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAİ) was established soon after the decision. Between 1987 and 1995, TAİ assembled 152 planes in the first phase of the F-16 project. The second phase took place between 1995 and 1999, and 80 planes were assembled. Turkey received its first overseas order for F-16 planes in 1993 from the Egyptian air force and assembled 46 planes for them.
Recently TAI upgraded the first of 17 planes for Jordan’s air force within the context of a modernization program. Several Turkey-made planes have also been dispatched to Pakistan.
In total TAİ has assembled 278 F-16s since it first began operations in 1987. During production, 29 planes were produced with no mistakes and three of them were considered “perfect.” Considering that only nine F-16 planes are produced as perfect out of 4,000 fighter jets in the world, Turkey’s success is conspicuous.
Turkey suspended production of the F-16 in 2000, but these fighter jets still remain the backbone of the Turkish armed forces.
Strained ties delayed delivery of plane accessories
As the agreement between the US and Turkey expired in 2000, Turkey has continued to work with Israel in modernizing the F-16s. Turkey has attempted to compensate for several mistakes that occurred while working with the US through several deals with Israel. The fundamental problem was that the US did not hand the F-16s directly to the Turkish Air Forces and it required TAİ-made planes be tested in the US before the eventual delivery to the Turkish Air Forces.
The US had also refused to provide source codes for the software of F-16s to Turkey since the inception of the joint production. Tensions in the relations between the US and Turkey have recently spawned a series of crises in this particular sphere, a possibility which Turkey has overlooked for years.
A senior official at the Turkish Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) confided in Today’s Zaman that the US is not willing to provide vital parts of the F-16 planes to Turkey in contrast to agreements the two countries have signed in the past few years.
The same senior official said the US delayed the fulfillment its duties specified in the agreements it signed with Turkey between 1987 and 1995 and that this has caused serious problems in modernization of F-16s.
The official lamented that Turkey is experiencing very serious problems in obtaining parts and accessories for the planes as ties with Israel collapsed, and that he finds it noteworthy to stress that the US administration has made congressional approval a precondition of selling any sort of weaponry and military equipment.
Last October the US expressed concerns that Turkey was using US-made F-16s in the Turkey-China aerial exercises, which took place in the Central Anatolian town of Konya, but Turkey reassured the US administration that no US-made jets were used in the joint drill.
Turkey decided to modernize 165 F-16 planes on Dec. 11, 2009 and several Israeli firms were competing to win the tender, along with Turkey’s TUSAŞ and HAVELSAN. All projects between Turkey and Israel in the areas of military training and cooperation were frozen in mid-June after the lethal May 31 Israeli raid on the Mavi Marmara, which was carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, leaving left nine civilians dead. The two countries were set to realize a $757 million plane and tank modernization project but this project was also shelved. The Turkish government decided to give the modernization tender to Turkish firms after Turkish-Israeli ties became strained.
A $240 million modernization project was given to Turkish companies, but 30 percent of the plane’s parts will be provided by the US military behemoth Lockheed Martin.
Turkey is also considering its participation in the world’s largest military consortium that is planning to produce 3,000 F-35 fighter jets. Turkey is the ninth country to take part in the production process of the F-35 warplane project. The other countries are the US, the UK, Italy, the Netherlands, Australia, Denmark, Canada and Norway. Turkey is expected to purchase 100 F-35 jets in the next 15 to 20 years. Rising costs pushed several countries to withdraw from the $280 billion project, and the same senior official said Turkey might also consider withdrawing.
The Defense Industry Executive Committee (SSİK), under the aegis of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, will make its final decision in April. The SSİK is seeking ways to jointly produce some parts of F-35 fighter planes with the American General Electric Co. and the Rolls-Royce Group in Turkey.
Turkey is also deliberating the exchange of its F-16s for F-35s within a reasonable time period. Turkey is expected to pay nearly $11 billion for 100 F-35 fighter jets. Citing rising costs in production, the consortium is asking Turkey for an additional $4 billion for the F-35s, but Turkey is reluctant to pay this amount. As some countries have withdrawn from the project, Turkey will reportedly have to pay up to $25 billion for the project.
Turkey is planning joint warplane production with Gulf countries
Turkey has made a radical shift recently, deciding to produce its first fleet of national fighter jets following crises in F-16 and F-35 projects with the US and Israel.
Turkish authorities decided during a Defense Industry Executive Committee (SSİK) meeting last December to begin production on the first Turkish fighter jets in 2020 in order to meet the needs of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK). TUSAŞ Engine Industries Inc. (TEİ) and TAİ will be the leading companies that will undertake production of these fighter jets, planning to design and produce plane engines by 2015.
Israel claimed that Turkey will fail to produce these jets as no country in the world would dare to build its own planes without participating in a consortium due to the high costs.
Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) Adana deputy Kürşat Atılgan told Today’s Zaman that no country could produce a fighter jet by itself and for lucrative production, there needs to be at least 400 jets produced. Considering this fact, Turkey had been secretly trying to build a consortium with neighboring and friendly countries. In last month’s SSİK meeting, Gönül also talked about the possibility of joint production of fighter jets with South Korean companies. This issue was raised during Erdoğan’s recent visit to Gulf countries. Turkey thinks it will be easier to produce its own fighter jets with five countries involved in the region.
Last edited by denizkuvetleri; 23 Jan 11, at 10:59.
What country in the Gulf has Any real experience in designing a 4th generation fighter, let alone a 5th one?
Also, what is up with Turkey? Seems to be constantly trying to move away from other NATO members...
According to the Turkish Procurement Agency, the Gulf countries will merely be financial partners. R&D and production will be the responsibility of Turkish companies: Turkish Aerospace Industries (for the fuselage) and Turkish Engine Industries (for the engine).
You would also note that the Talon missile being developed by Raytheon USA is actually being financed by the United Arab Emirates.
With regard to your last question: Turkey's strategic aim is to become independent economically and militarily in order to exert an independent foreign policy in it's region. However, it is my personal opinion that the Turkish establishment has exagerated this. There was nothing wrong with purchasing some F-35 and developing your own concurrently.
Last edited by denizkuvetleri; 23 Jan 11, at 13:48.
Even with money from other nations, does Turkey have the industrial base or experience to create a 4++ gen fighter that would be relevant against other 4++ and 5th gen aircraft?
No One Kicks A$! Without Tanker Gas
Definitely Pheonix TAI has produced a bunch of them (high block number f-16) under license and a number have been sold after touching US naval base soil in Signonello for about 15 minutes.
Design and the materials will still be a troublesome affair, engines have given many a fighter projects a lot of trouble, especially if they get out of the F-35 program.
cheers
For starters Turkey could follow the Chinese path - copy an existing foreign platform which you already produce under license and try to stuff it with as many domestic systems as you can.
Which means that Turkey could copy the F-16 airframe and buy a European engine, radar and electronic suit (perhaps in France) until domestic ones would be ready.
This will give Turkey the critical experience of integrating various parts in a single platform.
Perhaps the hardest part will be a fly-by-wire software since no one in his right mind will sell it. Even for established players in this field it took up to ten years to develop a FBW system.
It's not so much as Turkey moving away from NATo as the US-Congress punishing Turkey (again) for criticizing Israel for killing Turkish citizens.
And that's not the first time that the US put Turkey under sanctions, Turkey had been sanctioned by the US (under pressure of the Greek-Lobby) for protecting Turkish Cypriots in the 70s.A senior official at the Turkish Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) confided in Today’s Zaman that the US is not willing to provide vital parts of the F-16 planes to Turkey in contrast to agreements the two countries have signed in the past few years.
The same senior official said the US delayed the fulfillment its duties specified in the agreements it signed with Turkey between 1987 and 1995 and that this has caused serious problems in modernization of F-16s.
The official lamented that Turkey is experiencing very serious problems in obtaining parts and accessories for the planes as ties with Israel collapsed, and that he finds it noteworthy to stress that the US administration has made congressional approval a precondition of selling any sort of weaponry and military equipment.
Its highly questionable whether Turkey will ever get the F-35 with the US Congress being a playground for anti-turkish lobbying groups.
Turkey already has signed onto the JSF program as a Level 3 partner, if Congress tries to kick them out or stop delivery of the 116 F-35As, they'll have to pay the Turks so much money in damages that Ankara could probably buy its own manned space program.
And isn't Ankara in talks with South Korea on joining the KF-X program?
I am sceptical to this story -- has it been confirmed by other sources?
There are some obvious errors, for instance it says:
AFAIK no partner has left the consortium. The UK replaced their F-35B with F-35C but did not leave the consortium. Denmark has not decided what they will buy yet but did not leave the consortium. Non-consortium members have expressed strong interest and I believe Israel has already ordered.There have been serious doubts as to whether Turkey’s plan to purchase 100 F-35 fighter planes would ever materialize, as the country is thinking about withdrawing from the consortium following the hike in costs that resulted from other countries leaving from the consortium.
If Turkey were to leave the F-35 program then that would be rather major news. So, has this story been reported by other sources?
If this is a credible source, then the following qoutes are also rather interesting:
So they are referring to F-16s assembled in Turkey as "made in Turkey". What would you then make out of the following qoute:Recently TAI upgraded the first of 17 planes for Jordan’s air force within the context of a modernization program. Several Turkey-made planes have also been dispatched to Pakistan.
8...]
The fundamental problem was that the US did not hand the F-16s directly to the Turkish Air Forces and it required TAİ-made planes be tested in the US before the eventual delivery to the Turkish Air Forces.
Last October the US expressed concerns that Turkey was using US-made F-16s in the Turkey-China aerial exercises, which took place in the Central Anatolian town of Konya, but Turkey reassured the US administration that no US-made jets were used in the joint drill.
Turkey has been licence producing the F-16 since the 1980's: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article21.html
It has had access to critical technology in the JSF program as a Level 3 partner for so long. Several Turkish companies are producing under licence engines for the JSF: Turkey to produce engines of F35 jets: Caglayan [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]
TAI is currently producing the advanced composite fuselages for the F-35.
ASELSAN has been producing advanced Avionics for in excess of 30 years: Aselsan.com.tr .
HAVELSAN has been producing software for in excess of 20 years. It has recently integrated indegenous mission computers onto Turkish F-16.
HAVELSAN is one of a handful companies worldwide to design and produce advanced Flight Simulators.
Turkish Aerospace Industries has experience and R&D projects with respect to Fly-by-wire technology.
With a large budget Turkey can develop its own fighter. The development of an indegenous Medium Altitude Long Endurance UCAV is an example of Turkish Aerospace Industries abilities. The Development of the Gokturk-2 indegenous satelite is also evidence of an established industry base.
Last edited by denizkuvetleri; 24 Jan 11, at 06:10.
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Last edited by denizkuvetleri; 24 Jan 11, at 06:19.
I urge you to please take a look at this website: http://www.tei.com.tr/yeni/en/
Turkish Engine Industries currently produces many high technology products. This includes licenced produced engines for the F-16 and F-35. TEI is a partner in the A400M Europrop engine program. TEI also has an independent design team capable of designing and producing FADEC controlled Turbofan engines. It is also nearing completion of it's own turbofan engine. TEI has designed and developed an indegenous turboprop engine for its GOZCU and ANKA UAV's and the Hurkus trainer and counter insurgency aircraft. TEI is also currently licence producing the LHTEC CTS800-4A next generation turboshaft engines (originally developed for the RAH-66 Comanche) for TAI's T-129 ATAK helicopter program.
Last edited by denizkuvetleri; 24 Jan 11, at 06:29.
It looks like the F-35 is doomed to fail unfortunately....Gates orders freeze on production of JSF F-35B
Monday, January 10, 2011 INTELLIGENCE BRIEFING
WORLD TRIBUNE
Gates orders freeze on production of JSF F-35B
WASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Robert Gates has ordered the suspension of production for one variant of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Gates, citing the need to cut the Defense Department budget, said the decision would suspend plans to manufacture the short take-off and vertical landing variant of JSF, called the F-35B.
"If we cannot fix this variant during this time frame and get it back on track in terms of performance, cost and schedule, then I believe it should be canceled," Gates said.
A spokesman for Lockheed Martin told WorldTribune.com that production of the F-35B would continue but at a reduced rate. Gates said in a meeting with reporters on Jan. 6 in reference to the F-35B that "the plan is to — what we will do in 2012 is keep the production rate at the same level as FY '11. So 32 aircraft."
Officials acknowledged that the decision would significantly hamper plans by Israel and Turkey to acquire JSF fleets, Middle East Newsline reported. Israel has sought up to 75 F-35s and Turkey at least 100 of the stealth aircraft.
Turkey, a partner in the JSF program, has not yet ordered the F-35. In September, Israel signed a Letter of Offer and Agreement for 20 JSF aircraft for an estimated $2.7 billion. The Israel Air Force has expressed interest in procuring the F-35B.
Israel's ambassador to Washington, Michael Oren, said the Jewish state has sought to acquire another 20-25 aircraft from Lockheed Martin. But officials said the freeze in JSF production would not enable Israel to order a second squadron of the fifth-generation fighter.
Officials said at least one Gulf Cooperation Council state has been considering JSF. They said Qatar was briefed on the F-35 program in 2010 as part of the emirate's intention to modernize its air force.
Have seen nations with a history of license production of engines, failing to design their own when they had to.
The project is worth the investment, Turkey should start it.
However to bail out of the F-35 would not be wise.
cheers
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