Turkey mulls withdrawing from JSF- Gulf countries to finance indegenous alternative

**Maxor** · 30 Jan 11,, 00:59

Originally Posted by highsea

So Maxor. I am talking about the very highest levels of turbine tech. It's a stepping-stone process. For example: Pratt spent 15+ years developing their current metallurgy. That's not 15 years from scratch- they have 60 years of experience, and many levels of prior successes and failures to build from. They are well funded. They know what they're after- they have the theory, they have the material scientists and laboratories, but they have to commit to years and years of experimentation to be successful.

How much time do you think can be cut off by someone who has no prior experience, no prior technology, no facilities, but is well funded? Can Pratt's success be replicated in 2 years with nothing but money to throw at it?

Metallurgy is alchemy. It's half science and half art. The alloy is the ingredients, the process is the recipe. The objective is the cake. Theory will give a clue to the ingredients, but trial and error is required to develop the recipe.

I think 2 years is probably far to low of an estimate for a production engine but it wouldn't take 75 either, I can see in 3 to 5 getting something in a turbine that will give the thrust asked for in engines that eat themselves after fairly low operating hours, The kind of thing that would be usable for a proof of concept and progress to a foreign contract. I can see 3 to 5 years after that getting something not as good but competitive to current GE and Pratt engines in thrust to weight. People seem to forget that in a number of cases in order for a no strings attached weapons system, countries are willing in many cases to take a slightly inferior product, especially if they can get it less expensively. I'm not going to begin to say that Turkey, or someone else can make an engine that is as good in thrust to weight, durability, life-cycle and response. I am willing to say that with their transfers of tech, large amounts of cash, and a strong desire to try they can probably get something that approaches raw thrust to weight at the expense of durability,and a fast responding turbine. With a similar top-speed to a f-22, and claimed super cruise, how many middle eastern and asian countries would strongly consider buying a semi stealthy Turkish light fighter after UAE has sunk most of the development costs?

I'm not saying it will happen, I'm not saying its likely to happen, but any reasonably competent group of engineers given a goal they know is possible, the basic ingredients, and enough resources to play trial and error, in quantity can reach the goal in a reasonably short period of time.

We aren't talking about absolutely no knowledge or experience, just not a huge amount there are a couple of UAV's powered by indigenous Turkish jets. Its not the same class and it provides little more than basic background but its not like giving the ingredients to a 19th century foundry and blacksmith either. Do I think they will come out of the blocks with something as refined as a F110-GE-132? No. Do I think they can likely come out with something workable like an F-110-GE-100? You betcha since the engine is licensed produced there by TAI. I don't think its a first try get it right but I bet that having seen it done its a second or third try get it right type of deal.

**~~denizkuvetleri~~** · 30 Jan 11,, 10:28

Originally Posted by Maxor

I think 2 years is probably far to low of an estimate for a production engine but it wouldn't take 75 either, I can see in 3 to 5 getting something in a turbine that will give the thrust asked for in engines that eat themselves after fairly low operating hours, The kind of thing that would be usable for a proof of concept and progress to a foreign contract. I can see 3 to 5 years after that getting something not as good but competitive to current GE and Pratt engines in thrust to weight. People seem to forget that in a number of cases in order for a no strings attached weapons system, countries are willing in many cases to take a slightly inferior product, especially if they can get it less expensively. I'm not going to begin to say that Turkey, or someone else can make an engine that is as good in thrust to weight, durability, life-cycle and response. I am willing to say that with their transfers of tech, large amounts of cash, and a strong desire to try they can probably get something that approaches raw thrust to weight at the expense of durability,and a fast responding turbine. With a similar top-speed to a f-22, and claimed super cruise, how many middle eastern and asian countries would strongly consider buying a semi stealthy Turkish light fighter after UAE has sunk most of the development costs?

I'm not saying it will happen, I'm not saying its likely to happen, but any reasonably competent group of engineers given a goal they know is possible, the basic ingredients, and enough resources to play trial and error, in quantity can reach the goal in a reasonably short period of time.

We aren't talking about absolutely no knowledge or experience, just not a huge amount there are a couple of UAV's powered by indigenous Turkish jets. Its not the same class and it provides little more than basic background but its not like giving the ingredients to a 19th century foundry and blacksmith either. Do I think they will come out of the blocks with something as refined as a F110-GE-132? No. Do I think they can likely come out with something workable like an F-110-GE-100? You betcha since the engine is licensed produced there by TAI. I don't think its a first try get it right but I bet that having seen it done its a second or third try get it right type of deal.

TUSAS Engine Industries is not limited to licence producing the F-110-GE-100.

TUSAS Engine Industries licence produces the following engines:

- F110-GE-100;
- F110-GE-118;
- F110-GE-129;
- F110-GE-132;
- F110-GE-400 ;
(Used in the F-16C/D,F-14B/D,F-15E,F16-N,FS-X SLEP)

- TF39
(Used in C-5A,B)
- J85
(Used in the F-5,T-38,T-2C,A-37B)
- T700
(Used in the UH-60,AH-64,SH-60B,EH-101,UH-1)
-JT8D
(Used in the B737, B727, DC9)
-F136
(Used in the F35)
- JT8D
(Used in the B737, B727, DC9)
- CF6
(Used in the A300, A310,A330,B747,B767,DC10,MD11)
- CFM56
(Used in the A319, A320,A321,A340,DC8,B737)
-GE90
(Used in the B777)
- CF34
(Used in the Challenger CL-601,Regional Jet)
- CT7
(Used in the Bell 214ST, CN-235, S-70C, S-92)
-GP7200
(Used in the A380)
Marine and Industrial Engines
- LM2500/LM2500+
- LM5000
- LM6000
- LMS100

Source: TUSAS Engine Industries A.S.
TEI > Products & Services > Part and Module Manufacturing > Engine Programs

N.B. TEI sometimes outsources to Turbomak of Turkey: http://www.turbomak.com/turbomak.html

**~~denizkuvetleri~~** · 30 Jan 11,, 10:44

I have managed to gather further information from friends and family in the Turkish Aircraft/Aerospace Industry as follows:

Birlesik Metal & Special Alloys A.S. is the Turkish company which provides the superalloys used by Turkish companies TUSAS Engine Industries, Alp Aviation and Kale Kalip.

Birlesik currently exports to Germany, Austria, Bulgaria, Tunisia, Israel, UAE, Georgia etc.

Birlesik Metal & Special Alloys / Hot Work Tool Steel, Cold Work Tool Steel, Plastic Mold Tool Steel, Nitriding steel, Special Stainless Steel, High Speed Tool Steel

TUBITAK-SAGE, Materials Department develops Special Alloys, Superalloys and titanium and Rhenium (ruthenium) alloys for use in the Turkish Aerospace industry: http://www.prewin.eu/Gebze2007/Paper...Institutes.pdf (scroll down to page 11) & http://www.sage.tubitak.gov.tr/en/index.asp

Tubitak-SAGE is also home to the Ankara Subsonic Wind Tunnel testing centre.

Researchers at Gazi University, Turkey have also developed an Aluminium-Rhenium alloy (MnB2, TcB2, and ReB2) which they say could also be used in engines.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-217148741.html

**gf0012-aust** · 31 Jan 11,, 06:38

I think you're misunderstanding what ToT actually means. Fundamentally it can mean any tech shift that is not provided as a turnkey solution.

You have quoted all these engines and metallurgy production houses, but the basic issue is that Turkey does not have the technology (as a clear example) to deal with crystallising blades in turbine tech. Thats a tech solution that is available to less than a handful of majors - and Turkey is not amongst them

eg without the above capability, and with no intent to buy the components from the majors, means that Tuirkey automatically has to accept a performance compromise in any high performance aircraft it wants to build.

From what I can see of the traffic in here to date, nobody questions Turkeys ability to build jet fighters, but the capacity to build next gen solutions using current materials science advances is just not there.

**~~denizkuvetleri~~** · 31 Jan 11,, 07:26

TUSAS Engine Industries has the following Special Process technologies:

* Thermal Spray Coatings
* Shotpeening
* Simutaneous Shotpeening
* Inertia Weld
* Elektrochemical Machining
* Dry Film Lubricant & Sermetel Coating
* Nickel & Crome Plating
* Rubber Seal Coating
* Macroetch, Blue Etch , Black Oxide
* Alkaline Cleaning & Titanium Cleaning
* EDM & Wire EDM & Stem Drill
* Chemical Milling
* Laser Cutting & Drilling
* Heat Treatment
* Brazing

http://www.tei.com.tr/yeni/En/urunle...nAdi=Machining

**gf0012-aust** · 31 Jan 11,, 08:23

Originally Posted by gf0012-aust

I think you're misunderstanding what ToT actually means. Fundamentally it can mean any tech shift that is not provided as a turnkey solution.

You have quoted all these engines and metallurgy production houses, but the basic issue is that Turkey does not have the technology (as a clear example) to deal with crystallising blades in turbine tech. Thats a tech solution that is available to less than a handful of majors - and Turkey is not amongst them

eg without the above capability, and with no intent to buy the components from the majors, means that Tuirkey automatically has to accept a performance compromise in any high performance aircraft it wants to build.

From what I can see of the traffic in here to date, nobody questions Turkeys ability to build jet fighters, but the capacity to build next gen solutions using current materials science advances is just not there.
---End Quote---

Originally Posted by denizkuvetleri

TUSAS Engine Industries has the following Special Process technologies:

* Thermal Spray Coatings
* Shotpeening
* Simutaneous Shotpeening
* Inertia Weld
* Elektrochemical Machining
* Dry Film Lubricant & Sermetel Coating
* Nickel & Crome Plating
* Rubber Seal Coating
* Macroetch, Blue Etch , Black Oxide
* Alkaline Cleaning & Titanium Cleaning
* EDM & Wire EDM & Stem Drill
* Chemical Milling
* Laser Cutting & Drilling
* Heat Treatment
* Brazing

TEI > Products & Services > Part and Module Manufacturing > Manufacturing Capabilities Machining (TEI > Products & Services > Part and Module Manufacturing > Manufacturing Capabilities Machining)
...

and I rest my case about not having some of the essential requisite skills to build a contemp gen fighter.

quoting company capability pages does not alter the facts unless they have relevance.

seriously, you need to pause and take stock of this topic. Highsea demonstrated extraordinary patience and a willingness to try and explain.

It would pay to actually listen to people who do this as a job.

**highsea** · 31 Jan 11,, 18:36

A couple other press releases from Farnborough to illustrate that parts are subbed out all over the world.

Pratt & Whitney Signs Agreement with Australian Supplier Production Parts for F135 Engine Work

FARNBOROUGH AIR SHOW - July, 19, 2010 - Pratt & Whitney signed a purchase order with Production Parts to manufacture a critical engine component for the F135 propulsion system program. This new order, signed today at the Farnborough Air Show, combined with previously awarded work, has a potential value of more than $115 million over the life of the program. Pratt & Whitney is a United Technologies Corp. (NYSE:UTX) company.

“Production Parts has been producing engine components for Pratt & Whitney from the start of the F135 program, and continues to demonstrate the ability to deliver quality components, on time, to meet our customers’ needs,” said Bennett Croswell, vice president, Pratt & Whitney F135/F119 engine programs. “This work placement also enables Production Parts the opportunity, as a critical Pratt & Whitney supplier, to become part of the global sustainment solution for the F135 engine.”

Pratt & Whitney awarded Production Parts a best value purchase order to manufacture the high compressor case for the F135 engine program. This component provides a portion of the outer structural backbone of the engine.

“Receiving this purchase order to manufacture this critical component for the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine marks another important milestone in Production Parts' participation on the F-35 Lightning II program,” said Peter Nicolls, managing director, Production Parts. “This is the tenth component that Pratt & Whitney has placed with us for the F135 engine program, and we look forward to continuing this strong relationship with Pratt & Whitney.”

Press Releases

Pratt & Whitney Signs Ten-Year Agreement with Volvo Aero Norway for Engine Shaft Production

FARNBOROUGH AIR SHOW – July 19, 2010 – Pratt & Whitney signed a ten-year agreement with Volvo Aero Norway to produce military engine shafts for Pratt & Whitney engines including the F135 powering the F-35 Lightning II and the F119 powering the F-22 Raptor. The contract has the potential value of $61 million USD. Pratt & Whitney is a United Technologies Corp. (NYSE:UTX) company.

“This long-term agreement with Volvo Aero Norway illustrates our confidence in their ability and commitment to deliver high quality, reliable products for Pratt & Whitney fifth generation fighter engines,” said Warren Boley, President of Pratt & Whitney military engines. “We are proud of our continuing relationship with Volvo Aero Norway, and we value them as a world-class producer of dependable, best value product for the F135 engine.”

Volvo Aero Norway produces shafts for several Pratt & Whitney engines including the F100, F119 and F135 and produced all the shafts used during the highly successful F135 engine development program. These engine shafts are safety critical components which drive the engine’s fan compressor allowing optimal engine performance, and are designed to withstand severe loads and torque. Volvo Aero Norway will also produce the intermediate case and diffuser case for the F135.

Ongoing discussions are being held between Pratt & Whitney and Volvo Aero Norway to expand the involvement on the F135 engine program with other components.

Press Releases

**highsea** · 31 Jan 11,, 18:56

Other forgings, including turbine blades are supplied by Alcoa Power...

Alcoa Awarded $360 Million Contract by Lockheed Martin to Provide Aluminum Forgings on F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program

CLEVELAND--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Alcoa (NYSE:AA) today announced that its Alcoa Power and Propulsion business has been awarded a 10-year $360 million contract by Lockheed Martin to supply advanced patented 7085 alloy aluminum die forgings for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program.

.....

In addition to the aluminum forgings described above, other Alcoa aerospace units will provide critical F-35 components and solutions to the program. Among those are highly-engineered joining devices from Alcoa Fastening Systems, specialty alloy plate from Alcoa North American Mill Products, and high-pressure turbine blades for F-35 JSF engines and structural aluminum castings from Alcoa Power and Propulsion.

Alcoa: News: News Releases: Alcoa Awarded $360 Million Contract by Lockheed Martin to Provide Aluminum Forgings on F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program

**visioninthedark** · 06 Feb 11,, 19:58

Originally Posted by Loke

I may be wrong but I believe that the Turkish F-16 are significantly more advanced than the Pakistan F-16. I think it is a real difference in capability. AFAIK Turkey has some of the most advanced F-16 available. But I may be wrong.

That is not completely correct.

The most advanced version of the F-16 operated by THK is the Block 50. Please see the following source which is very dependable and updated:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article21.html

Pakistan recently received 18 Block 52+ F-16's from the US - which are the most advanced version of the F-16 apart from the Israeli F-16I Sufa's and UAE F-16 Block 60's.

Standard Block 50 and Block 52 aircraft are essentially the same. The only difference is the engine. Block 50 has F110-GE-129 engine while the Block 52 has F100-PW-229.

However, the Block 52+ aircraft which Pakistan has just taken delivery of are more advanced than the standard Block 50/52. Please see below:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html

Block 50/52 Plus

The Block 50/52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the Boeing JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead. Other features include passive missile warning, terrain-referenced navigation, and provisions for the 600 US gal (2,271 litre) external fuel tanks and conformal fuel tanks.

Other features of the aircraft include an on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS), the AN/APX-113 advanced electronic interrogator/transponder IFF system, helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS), ASPIS internal electronic countermeasures suite (full provisions), the Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 radar, which is the latest version of the F-16C/D radar. This radar features significant improvements in detection range, resolution, growth potential, and supportability. Furthermore, application of advanced processing techniques enhances the radar's ability to operate in dense electromagnetic environments and resist jamming better than all previous models.

The V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities. These include:

* 30 percent increase in detection range;
* Improvements in false alarm rate and mutual interference;
* Four versus two tracked targets in the Situation Awareness mode (a search-while-track mode);
* Larger search volume and improved track performance in Track While Scan mode;
* Improved track performance in Single Target Track mode;
* Two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons;
* Increased detection range in Sea Surveillance mode;
* Improved target detection and map quality in Ground Moving Target Indication mode.

In general, this radar offers a 5X increase in processing speed and 10X increase in memory compared to the current AN/APG-68 radar and provides large growth potential.

Turkey does not have Block 52+ Aircraft. PAF has 18 such Block 52+ aircraft.

Also, THK Block 50 aircraft are equipped with the APG-68(V5) radar while PAF Block 52+ aircraft are equipped with the more advanced APG-68(V9) radar.

Having said that, the rest of the older PAF F-16 fleet is not Block 52+ and all of them are going to be MLU'ed in Turkey by TAI.

**~~denizkuvetleri~~** · 07 Feb 11,, 09:50

Originally Posted by visioninthedark

That is not completely correct.

The most advanced version of the F-16 operated by THK is the Block 50. Please see the following source which is very dependable and updated:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article21.html

Pakistan recently received 18 Block 52+ F-16's from the US - which are the most advanced version of the F-16 apart from the Israeli F-16I Sufa's and UAE F-16 Block 60's.

Standard Block 50 and Block 52 aircraft are essentially the same. The only difference is the engine. Block 50 has F110-GE-129 engine while the Block 52 has F100-PW-229.

However, the Block 52+ aircraft which Pakistan has just taken delivery of are more advanced than the standard Block 50/52. Please see below:

Turkey does not have Block 52+ Aircraft. PAF has 18 such Block 52+ aircraft.

Also, THK Block 50 aircraft are equipped with the APG-68(V5) radar while PAF Block 52+ aircraft are equipped with the more advanced APG-68(V9) radar.

Having said that, the rest of the older PAF F-16 fleet is not Block 52+ and all of them are going to be MLU'ed in Turkey by TAI.

Correction:

Leave Pakistani F-16 aside ALL TuAF F-16's are now one of the most advanced in the world.

In April of 2005 the Turkish government signed an agreement for the upgrade of 217 F-16s (38 block 30, 104 block 40, 76 block 50) totalling $3.9 billion by Lockheed Martin (with principal sub-contractor being Turkish Aerospace Industries). The CCIP upgrade for the Turkish F-16s consist of the APG-68(V)9 multimode radar (currently being installed on new Advanced Block 50/52 F-16s), color cockpit displays and recorders, new core avionics processors, the Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System, Link 16 data link, advanced interrogator/transponder, integrated precision navigation, a unique electronic warfare system (licence produced local version of Loral ALQ-178(V)5 SPEWS III ECM system), and integration with a number of new indegenous and US made weapons and targeting systems including the AGM-154A/C and the AIM-9X.

The recently ordered batch of 30 vipers are also very similar to the Israeli F-16I Sufa they are known as the "F-16 Advanced Block 50": http://www.ssm.gov.tr/home/projects/...aceOnyxIV.aspx
They include:
Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) See picture below
Helmet Mounted Cueing System
Link 16 data link
Satellite Communication

**visioninthedark** · 07 Feb 11,, 10:17

@ denizkuvetleri

Merhaba erkadasim ...

Thank you for that information.

The upgrades you mention will bring the THK F-16's to the same standard as the Block 52+ (the advanced version of the block 50/52).

It will be a very potent force.

**Loke** · 08 Feb 11,, 08:23

Originally Posted by visioninthedark

Pakistan recently received 18 Block 52+ F-16's from the US - which are the most advanced version of the F-16 apart from the Israeli F-16I Sufa's and UAE F-16 Block 60's.

[...]

Having said that, the rest of the older PAF F-16 fleet is not Block 52+ and all of them are going to be MLU'ed in Turkey by TAI.

I am surprised to learn this -- the F-16 that the US donated to Pakistan are among the sophisticated in the world?

No wonder India is a bit unhappy about this! (sorry for the OT).

**visioninthedark** · 08 Feb 11,, 11:13

Loke .... Pakistan bought them through US FMS. They were not a donation. Fully paid for. Infact the original plan was for 36, but after the Kashmir earthquake, funding was diverted so the number was cut down to 18.

India has nothing to worry about, they are probably going to have 126 MRCA very soon - which will be very competent.

They also have 270 Su-30MKI's (or will have when order is complete).

Mirage 2000's / Mig-29 .... you name it .... in good quantities.

I don't think 18 F-16 can really do anything against their well equipped Air Force.

**gf0012-aust** · 08 Feb 11,, 11:17

before this heads down a path of deterioration - lets not turn this into an IAF and PAF fight-off comparison, or worse, "mines bigger than yours"

**Loke** · 08 Feb 11,, 19:56

Originally Posted by visioninthedark

Loke .... Pakistan bought them through US FMS. They were not a donation. Fully paid for. Infact the original plan was for 36, but after the Kashmir earthquake, funding was diverted so the number was cut down to 18.

Thanks for the information -- seems I was misinformed. Anyway, impressive planes.