Chinese 5th Gen Fighter Photo - Aviation Week

**paintgun** · 28 Dec 10,, 16:13

the day PAK FA flew, i said it sure made Russians proud
i think it is safe to say now that his new bird is making Chinese everywhere proud, congrats!

**gunnut** · 28 Dec 10,, 19:11

China will need Russia's OK to sell it at all since it flies on Russian engines. I guess the Russian engines could be swapped out with Chinese engines, then the performance will take a big hit.

Turbine engines aren't comsumer electronics. They take a bit longer to refine.

**Skywatcher** · 28 Dec 10,, 20:02

Originally Posted by Zinja

why do i find this statement so hard to believe. The people are getting help from Russia in the first place.

The PAK-FA doesn't hide its engines' turbine blades from radar line of site. Looking at the J-XX, it probably has S shaped ducts.

**Zinja** · 28 Dec 10,, 20:09

Originally Posted by Inst

Zinja: ripped-off F-35 / F-22 technology; and the Russians optimized for high maneuverability with reasonable front-end stealth.

How can you rip off something you don't have? Ripping off the frame is one thing because all you have to do is go look at the F22/35 at air shows. But ripping off the tech inside is another thing because you will need to lay hands on the actual kit.

**Zinja** · 28 Dec 10,, 20:21

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

The PAK-FA doesn't hide its engines' turbine blades from radar line of site. Looking at the J-XX, it probably has S shaped ducts.

This brings me to the question i asked earlier; can you just fit a convertional intake engine into an S duct intake? Wouldn't an S duct engine require special specifications to cope with the different air flows in the duct? I remember Highsea somewhere mentioning that there is all sorts of magic in the F-22 duct and the F-119 that make make 'things' work.

**Crocodylus** · 28 Dec 10,, 20:57

Originally Posted by gunnut

China will need Russia's OK to sell it at all since it flies on Russian engines. I guess the Russian engines could be swapped out with Chinese engines, then the performance will take a big hit.

Turbine engines aren't comsumer electronics. They take a bit longer to refine.

If China can get the metallurgical recipes for turbines and other jet engine parts subjected to high heat stresses from, say, Pratt & Whitney or Rolls Royce, they can produce indigenous engines of high quality.

Unfortunately, such exceptional alloy recipes tend to be the fruit of long and arduous R&D. Couldn't Chinese jet engine makers do the R&D themselves and come up with something superior to what Western manufacturers have, or at least apply some basic metallurgy and come up with a "good enough" product?

**gunnut** · 28 Dec 10,, 22:44

Originally Posted by Crocodylus

If China can get the metallurgical recipes for turbines and other jet engine parts subjected to high heat stresses from, say, Pratt & Whitney or Rolls Royce, they can produce indigenous engines of high quality.

Unfortunately, such exceptional alloy recipes tend to be the fruit of long and arduous R&D. Couldn't Chinese jet engine makers do the R&D themselves and come up with something superior to what Western manufacturers have, or at least apply some basic metallurgy and come up with a "good enough" product?

Well, the Soviet Union, then Russia, still can't match the metallurgy possessed by the west. China buys Russian engines because Chinese engines can't match the performance of Rissian engines. Russians had a 50 year head start already trying to compete with the west. China has a lot of ground to make up.

**Phoenix10** · 28 Dec 10,, 23:32

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

The PAK-FA doesn't hide its engines' turbine blades from radar line of site. Looking at the J-XX, it probably has S shaped ducts.

To me, the intake looks very much like the DSI on the F-35. I'm a little surprised that the top of the cockpit/nose of the aircraft is not more smoothly blended with the top of the body. At least it doesn't appear to be in the below photo.

Looks like it took "inspiration" from the PAK-FA's empennage + the F-35's intake + F-22's nose/cockpit + a little J-10 (canard) thrown in.

To me, the front view of the J-XX is probably the least attractive of any of the 5th Gen designs (except the horrendous X-32).

**kyli** · 29 Dec 10,, 05:10

Thanks CDF GT and Zyun8288

**Officer of Engineers** · 29 Dec 10,, 05:28

A couple of things. The PAK-FA made a maiden flight. This new bird has done nothing. Unless they have a secret agreement with the Russians ... which means the Russians know all about this bird, then this bird has no Russian engines. If this bird has Russian engines, it also means that the Russians are confident that it is inferior to the PAK-FA.

**kyli** · 29 Dec 10,, 05:37

If the Chinese used modified WS10A, is the risk acceptable.

**Phoenix10** · 29 Dec 10,, 05:44

Originally Posted by kyli

If the Chinese used modified WS10A, is the risk acceptable.

Which risk do you mean?

**kyli** · 29 Dec 10,, 05:53

WS10A has many shortcomings and deficiencies in few years back. Even though they fix most of the bugs now, it does not guarantee that further problems would not arise. New plane prefers to use the old and reliable engines for phototypes to reduce risks.

**Officer of Engineers** · 29 Dec 10,, 06:02

For a bird this big? Not big enough of an engine ... or rather, not dependable enough of an engine. You will burn the WS10A out in half of of its normal life expectancy.

**Phoenix10** · 29 Dec 10,, 06:09

Originally Posted by kyli

WS10A has many shortcomings and deficiencies in few years back. Even though they fix most of the bugs now, it does not guarantee that further problems would not arise. New plane prefers to use the old and reliable engines for phototypes to reduce risks.

It just seems like they have a long way to go before this thing becomes a threat to anyone. Even the Russians don't have an engine to recognize the PAK-FAs full potential. China hasn't demonstrated the ability to produce LPI AESA radars, any stealth whatsoever, any superior avionics, any even average engine, or the ability to build a reliable/maintainable fughter on their own. Integrating all of this is a challenge in it's self. The best they have to show so far is a J-10 that was outdated before it took off. Not that China cant do it, they just have A LOT to prove.

Stealing tech will only get you so far...