F-35 Bashing, from non-APA side

**Stitch** · 02 Dec 10,, 19:58

Versus - One of the things you're forgetting is that the MAJORITY (if not all) of the Raptor pilots are transitioning from another high-performance platform (typically F-15's), so they already have well over 1,000 hours in their previous aircraft; pilots with that many hours under their belt, especially in F-15's, should already know a thing or two about BFM and ACM. No pilots with less than 1,000 hours in a previous type were allowed to transition to the Raptor. Also, the transition was done as methodically as possible; here's an article from Smithsonian's Air & Space magazine that talks about the first batch of Raptor "plank owners":

"The Tyndall pilots’ training syllabus lasts 60 days. Cabral tells me that the first 21 days were all academic. He had to sit through 57 hours of classes (including five tests), plus 16 hours in the simulator. There are no two-seat F/A-22s, so when Cabral took off for the first time, it really was his first Raptor flight. The day before, he’d sat in the aircraft for the first time, then started it up. “It’s got that new car smell,” he recalls. “It’s louder than an [F-15] Eagle, it rumbles more, and the nose slopes down so it feels almost like you’re falling out of the plane.”

He had three basic “transition” rides—transitioning from the simulator—and a check ride, then his training continued through a series of carefully scripted steps that would simulate increasingly complex threat scenarios."

Go here for the full article.

**YellowFever** · 02 Dec 10,, 20:04

So where is your proof that a two seater F-22/35 will actually prepare the fighter pilot for the real thing as opposed to simulators?

You can argue that the pilots need more hours in the cockpit or even that the training needs to be more realistic but I fail to see what a two seater will do to improve that.

**Versus** · 02 Dec 10,, 20:33

It's psychological YellowFever, in school you had a teacher,in college you had professor,at work you have the boss. Hierarchy matters.Having an over-hyped pilot that played x box as a kid, than exposed to Hollywood movies than went to the military academy to become a JSF pilot and first thing he saw there is the trainer simulator where he excels because it is just as real as x-box, so the air-force gives him the real plane and he excels in it and than that kid gets sent in the real deal situation and since he is brought up with a sense that its all game and that he is so invincible, that notion gets him killed and 135 million dollar airplane destroyed.
You have to understand that the Xbox, the Game is the first experience that that kid had, that he was a "pilot" on the Xbox. I would be a lot less worried with a kid whom had the JSF poster on his wall and was dreaming about it every night. On the other side, I would be very worried with an X-Box Ace. The kid with a poster has a desire and passion, the kid with the X-box has a false experience.

**Versus** · 02 Dec 10,, 20:53

Originally Posted by Stitch

Versus - One of the things you're forgetting is that the MAJORITY (if not all) of the Raptor pilots are transitioning from another high-performance platform (typically F-15's), so they already have well over 1,000 hours in their previous aircraft; pilots with that many hours under their belt, especially in F-15's, should already know a thing or two about BFM and ACM. No pilots with less than 1,000 hours in a previous type were allowed to transition to the Raptor. Also, the transition was done as methodically as possible; here's an article from Smithsonian's Air & Space magazine that talks about the first batch of Raptor "plank owners":

"The Tyndall pilots’ training syllabus lasts 60 days. Cabral tells me that the first 21 days were all academic. He had to sit through 57 hours of classes (including five tests), plus 16 hours in the simulator. There are no two-seat F/A-22s, so when Cabral took off for the first time, it really was his first Raptor flight. The day before, he’d sat in the aircraft for the first time, then started it up. “It’s got that new car smell,” he recalls. “It’s louder than an [F-15] Eagle, it rumbles more, and the nose slopes down so it feels almost like you’re falling out of the plane.”

He had three basic “transition” rides—transitioning from the simulator—and a check ride, then his training continued through a series of carefully scripted steps that would simulate increasingly complex threat scenarios."

Go here for the full article.

All the pilots that are transitioning from F-15's to F-22's are in their late 30es. So if you remove the elite F-15 pilots, who is going to teach new generations of F-15 pilots so that they also can transition to F-22? What you are going to do when those F-22 pilots retire? Logic says that pilots which are not good enough for the F-22's will teach new pilots of the F-15's and those new pilots never achieve their full potential and make the transition to the F-22,thus making the shortage of the pilots that are F-22 qualified.
I don't know, again, I am not the expert here,all I know is that real weapons and weapon systems in real situations work a whole lot different than in video games,movies,presentation videos,testings or fancy manufacturer's brochures.

High sea is the one whom can talk about these things realistically

**Versus** · 02 Dec 10,, 21:55

This is what I am afraid of.
YouTube - NEAR CRASH ON TAKE OFF F-35...WOW!! SUSPECTED software malfunction F-35 AIRCRAFT

**Gun Grape** · 02 Dec 10,, 23:36

Originally Posted by Stitch

Versus - One of the things you're forgetting is that the MAJORITY (if not all) of the Raptor pilots are transitioning from another high-performance platform (typically F-15's), so they already have well over 1,000 hours in their previous aircraft; pilots with that many hours under their belt, especially in F-15's, should already know a thing or two about BFM and ACM. No pilots with less than 1,000 hours in a previous type were allowed to transition to the Raptor. Also, the transition was done as methodically as possible; here's an article from Smithsonian's Air & Space magazine that talks about the first batch of Raptor "plank owners":

Thats back in 2005. No different then when the AV-8 came on line in the Marine Corps. All the pilots were former test pilots.

No longer the case. Tyndall started graduating fresh minted, no other fighter exerience, pilots about 2 years ago.

**Stitch** · 03 Dec 10,, 00:09

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Thats back in 2005. No different then when the AV-8 came on line in the Marine Corps. All the pilots were former test pilots.

No longer the case. Tyndall started graduating fresh minted, no other fighter exerience, pilots about 2 years ago.

Wasn't aware of that; guess I need to keep up with the times!

**gunnut** · 03 Dec 10,, 00:28

Originally Posted by Versus

No matter how hard you try,Zinja, you can't simulate the reality. Pilots need to train in the air, they need to fly actual planes not 3d models. I am not trying to demean efforts of any soldier, no matter on which side he or she is. I was a soldier and I know how hard it is, and how important the good training is. Computer simulations cannot deliver that. Computers cannot simulate smells, stenches, concussions from the shock wave,pain from the shrapnel, they can't simulate blood.

2 seaters are for transition. It used to be we needed the 2 seater because a trainer didn't fly like the real fighter. Now we can program simulators, and trainers too, to fly like the real fighter the pilots are transitioning to. Do they behave exactly like the real thing? Probably not. But those will give pilots enough experience to fly the real thing for more training, trainings that even a 2 seater couldn't provide.

**Jimmy** · 03 Dec 10,, 03:05

Originally Posted by Versus

This is what I am afraid of.
YouTube - NEAR CRASH ON TAKE OFF F-35...WOW!! SUSPECTED software malfunction F-35 AIRCRAFT

Please tell me you're joking.

What's really sad is this is the second time I've run across this video. My friend's grandfather emailed it to him asking if it was real. My response here is the same: laughter. This is a VIDEO GAME. It's not even a new game, it's Battlefield 2, which came out like 7 years ago (I still play online, quite regularly). You can do absolutely ridiculous things in the F-35 due to the ancient physics engine.

Edit: Also, F-22 pilot trainees are fully qualified pilots before they set foot at Tyndall AFB. They already know how to fly a plane. Now they have to learn how to use the F-22 as the insanely capable weapon it is.

**Versus** · 03 Dec 10,, 05:56

Originally Posted by Jimmy

Please tell me you're joking.
What's really sad is this is the second time I've run across this video. My friend's grandfather emailed it to him asking if it was real. My response here is the same: laughter. This is a VIDEO GAME. It's not even a new game, it's Battlefield 2, which came out like 7 years ago (I still play online, quite regularly). You can do absolutely ridiculous things in the F-35 due to the ancient physics engine.
Edit: Also, F-22 pilot trainees are fully qualified pilots before they set foot at Tyndall AFB. They already know how to fly a plane. Now they have to learn how to use the F-22 as the insanely capable weapon it is.

I know that it is a game, but my point is, how safe would you feel, having an actual F-35 pilot whom has this in the back of his mind and wants to see it this is possible in reality?

**Officer of Engineers** · 03 Dec 10,, 06:22

Originally Posted by Versus

I know that it is a game, but my point is, how safe would you feel, having an actual F-35 pilot whom has this in the back of his mind and wants to see it this is possible in reality?

Not your job nor mine. It's the birds' problem. If the birds have confidence, then it's up to them ... however, they would surely hear about it if my people instead of the enemy's are the ones who gets burned.

**Versus** · 03 Dec 10,, 07:12

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Not your job nor mine. It's the birds' problem. If the birds have confidence, then it's up to them ... however, they would surely hear about it if my people instead of the enemy's are the ones who gets burned.

You are right, not my problem really. I am out.