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Thread: F-22s now require less maintenance than F-15s?

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    F-22s now require less maintenance than F-15s?

    Saw a post from here:

    Another Al-Dhafra post-script for F-22 - The DEW Line

    Original article:

    Arabian Aerospace - Raptor rules the desert roost

    See the bold text. Does this mean that the Raptors are becoming easier to maintain than the F-15s? What does that mean in terms of actual operating costs?

    Raptor rules the desert roost
    Posted on 6 August 2010 in Defence

    The two stars of the Dubai air show were Lockheed Martin's F-22 and Dassault's Rafale and each sought to outdo the other in the daily flying display.

    Behind the scenes, they also squared up to one another in simulated air combat. The 27th Fighter Squadron, part of the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley AFB, Virginia , deployed six Lockheed F-22 Raptors to Al Dhafra during the ATLC exercise. This marked the first deployment of the F-22A Raptor to what the USAF call SouthWest Asia (or the Central Command AOR). The F-22As fought Armée de l’Air Rafales on six occasions, to the evident interest of local UAE Air Force observers, for whom the Rafale seems likely to be their next frontline fighter.

    Normally, the results of dissimilar air combat training exercises are not publicized, but following the 2009 ATLC exercises, there were tantalizing glimpses of what had gone on. During an official press conference the commanding officer of the French Rafale detachment at Al Dhafra, Colonel Fabrice Glandclaudron, claimed that in six within-visual-range ‘dogfight’ engagements with the F-22A, only one resulted in the virtual destruction of a Rafale He said the other four engagements were ‘inconclusive’, or terminated due to a lack of fuel, or approaching the pre-determined height limit. It was subsequently hinted by French sources that, had they been allowed to simulate the use of their Mica missiles, the Rafale would have gained victories over the USAF fighters.

    The USAF refused to comment directly about the French claims, though the 27th Fighter Squadron’s project officer for the F-22 deployment, Major John Rogers, told Arabian Aerospace: “I don’t remember the fights quite that way. In any case, we leave claims and counter-claims to the debrief.”

    Lt Col Lansing Pilch, commander of the 27th, and of the F-22 deployment to Al Dhafra, was categoric in stating his view of the Raptor’s performance during the exercise. He confirmed that the six Raptors flew undefeated, against all opponents. Pilch said: “In every test we did, the Raptors just blew the competition out of the water.” He did praise the Rafale, however. “It is a good aircraft, combining avionics with manoeuvrability. I was impressed – it’s on a par with the USAF’s F-15s and F-16s, at least.”

    The deployment of the Raptor to Al Dhafra was undertaken to test the expeditionary capabilities of the F-22A, and particularly to evaluate how it performed while conducting operations in a harsh desert environment. The six F-22As flew some 86 exercise sorties during the deployment, including 36 DACT (Dissimilar Air Combat Training) sorties. Four sorties were also flown at the Dubai air show in support of the United States Air Force F-22 Raptor Aerial Demonstration Team, whose pilot is a member of the 27th Fighter Squadron.

    There was never any intention for the aircraft to fully participate in the main ATLC exercise, though the opportunity was taken to offer bilateral training opportunities to coalition partners who were taking part in the course, allowing the 27th FS to show what their aircraft could do, and to learn more about the capabilities of the USA ’s allies and partners.

    Pilch was keen to stress that the purpose of these engagements had been to provide high-value training to the participants in the ‘core’ ATLC exercise, rather than to simply demonstrate the dominance of the F-22A in the air-to-air combat arena. “We were not there to beat up on anybody, we were there to get them to see, touch, hear and smell the F-22, showing them what we can do, and learning about what they can do, and thus how best we can operate alongside them in coalition operations,” Pilch said.

    For these training missions, the F-22As flew only within visual range 1 vs 1 BFM (Basic Fighter Manoeuvring) sorties, and did so carrying under-wing fuel tanks, and with radar reflectors fitted, preventing opponents from seeing how ‘stealthy’ the F-22 is in operational configuration, or from experiencing the F-22’s AN/APG-77 radar and highly advanced AN/ALR-94 passive receiver system.

    The Raptor pilots flew against a variety of opponents, with only the RAF turning down the offer of training against the F-22A, to the evident disappointment of Pilch and Rogers.

    Pilch singled out the UAE Air Force and Air Defence pilots for their professionalism and thanked them for having been “great hosts”. Because some of the UAE Mirage 2000 pilots had 3,000 hours on type, while some of his young F-22 pilots had just 30 hours on the Raptor, he acknowledged that DACT with the UAE AFAD had been an “interesting match-up” and that this had presented his younger pilots with a real “challenge”. Pilch praised the UAE Air Force’s Block 60 F-16E/F for its “awesome avionics”, and lauded the Mirage 2000-9 for its “excellent manoeuvrability, especially close-in”.

    The Raptor pilots also highlighted the value of flying against the Pakistani F-7s, which represented an interesting and representative ‘asymmetric threat’ aircraft, in service in countries like Iran and North Korea .

    The Squadron rated its deployment to Al Dhafra a great success. Though the deployment marked the F-22A’s first extended test under such harsh desert conditions, with fierce sandstorms and 100° temperatures, and despite operating thousands of miles from its normal supply chain, the aircraft exceeded the USAF’s expectations, demonstrating impeccable availability and a higher-than-expected sortie rate. “The maintenance group didn’t know what to expect and so we took a generic support equipment package,” Rogers said later. “We pretty well got it just right.” In the event, the F-22A operated at a higher tempo and with a smaller logistics footprint than would be required by the F-15 or F-16 – aircraft types that have been deploying to the region since the 1970s.

    The 27th Fighter Squadron’s CO expressed his satisfaction with the progress that had been made, stressing: “The problems we had with software, avionics, sensor tasking and sensor fusion back in 2003 when I joined the F-22 programme have all been ironed out, and we’re transitioning to a great point in the next six months where the aircraft will truly be cost-effective and fully mature.” He said he expected a real improvement in sortie generation capability in the near future.

    But, quite apart from demonstrating cost-effectiveness, availability and maturity, the F-22A also highlighted its unique operational capabilities during the deployment to Al Dhafra. “We demonstrated that Raptor can defend a particular point better than anything else and that we have an unmatched ability to strike hard and deep and with great precision. Finally, we can provide great situational awareness to the rest of the force,” Pilch said.

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    Senior Contributor HKDan's Avatar
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    Colonel Fabrice Glandclaudron, claimed that in six within-visual-range ‘dogfight’ engagements with the F-22A, only one resulted in the virtual destruction of a Rafale He said the other four engagements were ‘inconclusive’, or terminated due to a lack of fuel, or approaching the pre-determined height limit. It was subsequently hinted by French sources that, had they been allowed to simulate the use of their Mica missiles, the Rafale would have gained victories over the USAF fighters.
    The USAF refused to comment directly about the French claims, though the 27th Fighter Squadron’s project officer for the F-22 deployment, Major John Rogers, told Arabian Aerospace: “I don’t remember the fights quite that way. In any case, we leave claims and counter-claims to the debrief.”
    You really have to love the French. They love their Rafale and defend it with greater tenacity than they ever defended Paris with...

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKDan View Post
    You really have to love the French. They love their Rafale and defend it with greater tenacity than they ever defended Paris with...
    Yup, their premier fighter with their premier missile might have been able to beat an F-22 with external tanks and radar reflectors.

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    “The problems we had with software, avionics, sensor tasking and sensor fusion back in 2003 when I joined the F-22 programme have all been ironed out, and we’re transitioning to a great point in the next six months where the aircraft will truly be cost-effective and fully mature.”
    Great! So lets just terminate the production line then

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    Forgive my ignorance, why is it so hard to incorporate A2G onto the Raptors? Can you add an IR illuminator or targeting pod into the Raptor?

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    bombs are big and excpet for the small diameter bomb do not fit in the internal weapons bay and thus ruin the F-22's stealth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    bombs are big and excpet for the small diameter bomb do not fit in the internal weapons bay and thus ruin the F-22's stealth.
    F-22 can also carry up to 2x1000 lb JDAM internally. There has been some press about F-22s being able to get longer range shots with JDAMs dropped at high speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKDan View Post
    F-22 can also carry up to 2x1000 lb JDAM internally. There has been some press about F-22s being able to get longer range shots with JDAMs dropped at high speed.
    The range I heard quoted for a JDAM dropped at height & altitude by an F-22 was 56 miles, give or take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Yup, their premier fighter with their premier missile might have been able to beat an F-22 with external tanks and radar reflectors.
    Not only that, but the F-22 was not allowed to use it's avionics, thereby "preventing opponents from seeing how ‘stealthy’ the F-22 is in operational configuration, or from experiencing the F-22’s AN/APG-77 radar and highly advanced AN/ALR-94 passive receiver system." Sounds like a handicap to me . . . . .

    "Yeah. See, we plan ahead, that way we don't do anything right now. Earl explained it to me." - Tremors, 1990

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKDan View Post
    F-22 can also carry up to 2x1000 lb JDAM internally. There has been some press about F-22s being able to get longer range shots with JDAMs dropped at high speed.
    Are you sure about that? I thought the 1000 lb bombs have diameter greater than the missile bay inside the F-22. That was the reason for developing the SDB.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    F-22s now require less maintenance than F-15s?

    Well...yes...if F-15s keep falling out of the sky.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Are you sure about that? I thought the 1000 lb bombs have diameter greater than the missile bay inside the F-22. That was the reason for developing the SDB.
    Yup, from the USAF website (factsheet on F-22A):

    Armament: One M61A2 20-millimeter cannon with 480 rounds, internal side weapon bays carriage of two AIM-9 infrared (heat seeking) air-to-air missiles and internal main weapon bays carriage of six AIM-120 radar-guided air-to-air missiles (air-to-air loadout) or two 1,000-pound GBU-32 JDAMs and two AIM-120 radar-guided air-to-air missiles (air-to-ground loadout)

    Picture: File:F-22 bomb.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Factsheet: Factsheets : F-22 Raptor

    'Mission Capable' Story: Air Force Operational Test and Evaluation Center Rates F-22A ?Mission Capable?
    Last edited by JA Boomer; 09 Aug 10, at 20:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    F-22s now require less maintenance than F-15s?
    Perhaps this was true precisely because the USAF did not care about the stealth futures of the aircraft, or for that matter the offensive avionics. This is the first I've heard of the F-22A having decent maintenance, it could very well be isolated to this exercise that that reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    F-22s now require less maintenance than F-15s?
    YES... once you remove the set up expense for maintenance of a major weapon system and calculate only the 'operational cost' of the F-15C versus the F-22A. The F-22A was designed to be cheaper to operate.
    The F-35 is designed to be even cheaper to operate than any existing fighter! Some sub-systems are designed to last the life of the plane!!

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    I suppose the retirement of the F-117 fleet created a void for a stealthy first-strike platform, thus the bombs, but I've never understood the burning need to take every airframe we make and turn it into a bomb truck - The F-14, F-15, and now the F-22. Mission specialization yields great results. These airframes should be preserved for their counter-air mission, IMO.

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