Thread: Langley seeks third squadron of Raptors

It was closer to 700 F-15s in 2007. I can't find exact numbers, though I admit I'm not trying very hard. The original 781 F-22 dream was roughly a 1:1 replacement "plan."

I never said the Navy is incapable of being a Day 1 air power, my point was that it's the AF's job and we can do it better. If there are Navy assets available they'll definitely be used, but handing that task over completely isn't ideal. They do a hell of a job at being jacks of all trades when it comes to airpower.

I actually agree with just about everything you're saying.

Originally Posted by Jimmy

It was closer to 700 F-15s in 2007. I can't find exact numbers, though I admit I'm not trying very hard. The original 781 F-22 dream was roughly a 1:1 replacement "plan."

Ya your right it could be as high as that couldn't it. A quick search says 483 F-15C and 92 F-15D were manufactured for the USAF, these along with probably most of the 445 F-15A/B were probably operational at least in 2004/05 right before the F-22A entered squadron service. Wow, that force reduction is just absolutely silly!

I could probably dig out some old magazines, and at least get exact numbers for squadrons, but I think you're pretty close to the right number. Plus Raptor squadrons typically have less aircraft assigned then Eagle units correct?

Originally Posted by Jimmy

I never said the Navy is incapable of being a Day 1 air power, my point was that it's the AF's job and we can do it better. If there are Navy assets available they'll definitely be used, but handing that task over completely isn't ideal. They do a hell of a job at being jacks of all trades when it comes to airpower.

Fair enough, I sorta miss read that comment, thought I'd stick up for the USN haha.

Originally Posted by Jimmy

I actually agree with just about everything you're saying.

Ya, this is not the first time we've had a similar conversation on WAB is it Jimmy

I was actually thinking about that as I typed it out haha.

And yeah, there are fewer F-22s in a squadron than F-15Cs. If I remember right, it was usually mid-20s for Eagles, and it's high teens (maybe 20?) for Raptors.

Originally Posted by Jimmy

I was actually thinking about that as I typed it out haha.

And yeah, there are fewer F-22s in a squadron than F-15Cs. If I remember right, it was usually mid-20s for Eagles, and it's high teens (maybe 20?) for Raptors.

IIRC every Raptor squadron gets 20 airframes, but only 18 are PMAI aircraft. I also came across this article today, apparently the never ending F-22 saga continues.

Lockheed to preserve F-22 tooling for future use

Lockheed Martin confirms the US Air Force has decided to retain tooling for the F-22 after the production line in Marietta, Georgia, shuts down as scheduled in 2012.

The decision means that USAF officials will be able to repair and modernise the service's aircraft, or manufacture new Raptors.

Lockheed says tools with "near-term needs" will be retained on site. Others will be preserved and stored in large, bar-coded steel containers commonly used by the shipping industry, which it says reduces "costs associated with conventional warehousing".

Air force officials were not immediately available to comment, but have previously said that a decision to preserve F-22 tooling would be intended to support a future service life-extension programme for the stealth fighter.

At the same time, the decision also implicitly preserves the option to restart production if future administrations decide that the USAF needs more than 186 F-22s.

Congress in 2009 approved the Obama administration's decision not to extend F-22 production beyond the programme of record set by the Bush administration in 2006. But the Congressional approval came only after several months of heated debate.

Meanwhile, Rand's Project Air Force analytical group published a study on 3 March showing that the F-22 supply chain could be reactivated after a two-year gap. Rand studied not only the availability of tooling, but also whether key suppliers could leave the industry within this period of time.

However, Rand concluded that restarting production after a two-year work stoppage would significantly increase costs.

Assuming a 75-aircraft production run over five years, it found the cost per aircraft would be $227 million. If production continued without interruption, the average unit cost would be $173 million.

The USAF may be looking to do an upgrade/redesign of the Raptor (like how the F-15A/C was changed into the F-15E). Lord only knows how much that will cost though.

I'm still hoping for a "white knight" situation in 2012 that will continue Raptor production. I know, I know, wish in one hand, spit in the other . . . . . .

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

The USAF may be looking to do an upgrade/redesign of the Raptor (like how the F-15A/C was changed into the F-15E). Lord only knows how much that will cost though.

There's probably a lot more involved in an upgrade/redesign of the F-22 then there was with the F-15; remember, a two-seat version of the F-15 already existed when they came up with the F-15E (nee Strike Eagle). There is no two-seat version of the F-22, nor will there probably ever be. The only upgrades that could probably be (feasibly) done to the Raptor are software and subtle hardware changes (upgraded avionics, upgraded engines, etc.), no major redesigns. At this point, it makes more sense (in that respect) to stick with the F-35, and possible upgrades/redesigns of that airframe.

Originally Posted by Stitch

I'm still hoping for a "white knight" situation in 2012 that will continue Raptor production. I know, I know, wish in one hand, spit in the other . . . . . .

Since the Raptor downtrend started under Bush, I doubt anyone is going to reverse it short of JXXs and PAKFAs buzzing Capitol Hill.

Originally Posted by Stitch

.............There is no two-seat version of the F-22, nor will there probably ever be................

I think that's one reason why Boeing seems to have hopes for a "6th gen" aircraft.