ajaybhutani

... they were silly nough to go for the Kargil ..

troung

Um right....

Talk about writing without any point or thought....

You are 15 right?

No doubt India is the main target but it is how they use them againist India which is important.

I said openly they tried to hide Kargil for as long as possible....

And plus Pakistan is unlike 1999 close to the USA and I doubt Mush is that silly to ruin that for another border war. Not like we are arming them to give them an actual edge to make the risk even worth it.

Doesn't mean much, the best Pakistan can produce serve on their F-16s. Plus these days they are planning for a huge boost to the fleet.

ajaybhutani

A point to note here is much was one of the minds behind kargil.He surely has become mature nough not to try it again. But what if he falls../what when he goes out of power.. The condition in balauchistan isnt good either..Pakistan isnt not stable wether its politics military militancy or freedom struggles within. The condition is very critical and if anything wrong goes in paksitan it wont happen without hurting india in a big way too.
Even the PoK might get unstable now with the improved links between J&K and PoK which will show the PoK people the sparkiling difference in the two regions.


Some points in Indias favour.
1. The pop of india is 6 times .So more numbers with similar talent with us.
2. What are the flight hours for PAF. vs India.(india comes in one of the highest now..).
3. IAF has a lot of experience in BVR unlike PAF.
4. As the matter of fact the IAF Mig29 is a better platform than tha PAF F16.
5. PAF F16s will see the opponents who are numercally superior.
6. In war a F16 lost by Pakistan will hurt it much more than a Mig29 lost by India.
7. The boost in the fleet is not at all much compared to the IAF plans.

hammer

Troung I havent seen any news about US selling AIM-120C to pakistan so far. Can you give me some link that confirms it? all they have now is AIM-9's and the Chinese BVR AA missile hasnt been inducted AFAIK.

then you dont know Pakistan.

troung

Well we will have to wait on it but I fail to see any hurdles with the AIM-120. Don't see us giving the PAF an offensive weapon like the AGM-88 and no way the JDAM. So me I would just say wait on it before suggesting they might not have BVR weapons, I shall do the same...

That's a given as is India's greater experience with ECM/EW.

That's a given being the smaller air force. Now how many F-16s they get depends on how much it will hurt them to lose some.

It doesn't overtake them yes but it is a huge boost for them. We could be talking about a 70 plane increase in the fleet which would be huge, in not only numbers but making the PAF capable of conducting more missions. It all depends on the numbers and what type of package they get.

---
Granted if I were them in the short term I would be at the boneyard buying up surplus F-16A/B ADFs, to get out some of the really old crap (A-5s), to make up for the time it would take new build models to show up, and for a morale boost to the airforce and population. ADF versions of the F-16 are actually pretty cheap (we are talking 7-10 million or less then the FC-1) and have a lot of life left. Maybe a squadron to give a total of 2 F-16 squadrons and bring them up to a common standard while still ordering the modern F-16s. That's just me.

ajaybhutani

Trong,
i tried to compare the Pak F16 with Indian Mig29 as of today.
For if we talk about PAksitan getting AIM 120 Indian equations will include the newer MRCA upgrades for Mig29, Phalcons ,R77PD(under development in Russia). etc etc.So i preferred to keep the future planning of PAF out of picture to see what falls more Mig29 or F16 in India vs Pak.

troung

So why discuss something boring like that....

But the topic was the Baaz vs. the F-16C/D B-50+ which is rather lopsided and I know which I would prefer flying to protect/support me...

ajaybhutani

by those standards even comparing the F16 blk 50/52 with current Indian Mig29 (purchased in 1990s ) is alos quite boring.We shud better go for F16 Blk 50/60 vs Mig29 M2. etc etc. for an interesting comparison.

troung

Well the MiG-29M, which is not in service anywhere, is even more boring to talk about.

What one gets is comparing the F-16s actual record againist MiGs marketing statements... what you get is one side betting the farm on words from MiG and the other betting the farm on F-16 results.

If you really want to compare a Pakistani F-16A/B B-15 with it's Indian counterpart one should compare it with the Mirage 2000EH/DH. Both are multi role fighters with similar enough roles. The Indian MiG-29 is an point air defense only fighter while Pakistani F-16A/B B-15s are multi role fighter. So right off the bat you can't compare the MiG-29s strike ability to an F-16A/B without looking silly. The Mirage 2000E/D and F-16A/B conduct pretty much the same operations and are very likely foes while fighting from varying weapons loads. It is rather like the old Hunter vs. F-86 thing...

In fact at the way things are looking an F-16C/D B-50 vs. Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 matchup in South Asia seems far more likely then a MiG-29M vs. F-16C/D B-50 match up.

Maybe you might want to open a F-16A/B B-15 vs. Mirage 2000E/D topic...

Or take the M2K5 vs. F-16C/D B-50 and turn it into a F-16A/B B-15 vs. Mirage 2000E/D thing...

Dima

well, i'll have to agree with Troung on this one, have you been listening to the news, Pakistani-Indian relations are the ripest in a VERY long time

OMFG, whenever i need a link, i can't find it, OMG

another positive for India is that it has A LOT more money

"What one gets is comparing the F-16s actual record againist MiGs marketing statements... what you get is one side betting the farm on words from MiG and the other betting the farm on F-16 results."

i really like the Falcon and the Fulcrum, but their record doesn't matter at all, look at the conditions that they won, really, no competition AT ALL, hey, does anyone have the air combat record between Pakistan and India, that would be really interestig to look at

well, the MiG-29M can conduct ground strikes, you might be talking about the MiG-29A

__________________
for MOTHER MOLDOVA

troung

Off the top of my head I think it is 1.6:1 in favor of Pakistan. Not a huge margin when one gets down it it.

In the India Pakistan conflict how the Mirage 2000 and F-16 stack up to each other in terms of not only air combat but strike/BAI, fleet numbers and mission readiness could have a more important effect then the MiG-29 "Baaz" and the F-16. Both the Mirage 2000 and F-16 serve in the same type of missions and will play major parts in both air forces.

To the topic at hand apples and green beans. The F-16C/D B-50+ is heads and tails more modern then the MiG-29 "Baaz" and is capable of conducted more types of missions over longer ranges then the "Baaz".

killer

I do notr hink you really know about the planes and just making comments fotr the sake of making it.

you cannot compare a F16 and Mig 29. unless you know all the technical details avionics used arms used etc. like Indian mig 29s are supirior to pakistani F16s . this is based on avionic and the millisles it can carry. but F16 Block 50 /block 60 are superior to indian Mig 29 . again Mig 29 M2 is supirior to F16 Block 50.

so these planes are all of same standard, only difference is on the avionics and the arms they carry.

for your information one of my friends who Fly Mig 21 repeat Mig 21 and NOT mig 29. is saying that upgraded mig 21 is superior to pakistani F16s. because mig 21 has Very good beyond visual range misiles with good upgraded avionics. which pakistani F 16 do not have.

another example is su 30 MKI and su 30 MKK. the planes are same but su 300 MKI is superior as the avionic is superior than MK 30 MKK.

so when you compare the planes , first compare the avionics and weapon systems only declare something superior..

troung

A and B

In air combat yes. Pakistan currently does have one of the weakest F-16 fleets around (yes weaker then Thailand, Portugal, Bahrain and Singapore). For air to ground operations the PAF F-16 is far more capable then the majority (if not all) of inservice and combat ready MiG-29s.

I would wait until the MiG-29M2 does something before calling it better then anything

And the two might never actually face each other. The Indian air force does seem to be leaning towards the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 as their next MRCA and getting more on the side as well (Qatar).

Like I keep saying a better discussion would be the Mirage 2000EH/DH and F-16A/B Block 15 or the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 and F-16C/D B-50/52. Those are more likely to face each other in South Asia from the way things are looking. That would cover more areas at the very least and not be another boring topic about air to air combat....

Aryaramnaes

Thank you Ajay and Troung, You guys have done justice to my question.

uss

Hi, please check the following link:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_327.shtml

Should give you a decent account of IAF kills (if you browse around a bit more, you can find PAF kills record as well). this website is pretty decent, informative and unbiased.

Also, those of you who have any doubts re Indian current MiG 29s Vs PaF F16s (current, not blk 50), please check the entry for May 1999 (Kargil episode) on the above address. Clearly shows how single MiG29 had locked on to 2 PAF F16s. IAF Mirages too had a v.good record against PAF F16s. There were no kills as PAF F16s retreated and Indians didn't pursue in order to prevent escalation of war.

Although Blk 50 F16s probly have advantage over current Indian MiG29s ( not sure of this because IAF MiG29s are not typical e.european/m.eastern MiG29As - plenty of tweaking has happened to those puppies. Whatsmore, they are due for a comprehensive upgrade perhaps with Bars 29 radar and all)

A better comparison might be the IN MiG 29Ks VS F16 blk 50.

Regards,
USS.