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Reply With QuoteWere the F-117s actively engaged in SEAD missions?Originally Posted by Jimmy
From what I've read their primary missions were attacks on high-level infrastructure and attempts at decapitation strikes by bombing palaces, etc.
Days 1 and 2 wiped out one of the worlds' most capable IADS.Well, F-16 were used over Bagdad at day on 19th of January 1991, 3 days after F-117 night flight: Target for Today: Baghdad
And this story does support you statement.
Were the F-117s actively engaged in SEAD missions?
From what I've read their primary missions were attacks on high-level infrastructure and attempts at decapitation strikes by bombing palaces, etc.
USNA 2014?
IIRC the original case for the B-2 during the 80's and early 90's was that in the very early hours of a crisis (or even before) the B-2's would take off. Then, in roughly 8 hours, they could be anywhere. Each B-2 carries dozens of thermonuclear weapons and there will be dozens of them continuously patrolling in the air.Well... Subsonic aircraft with gravity nuclear bombs.One might expect better for $1 billion price tag. Good for USAF they still have B-52. Honestly i have problems trying to imagine situation then B-2 is better choice over B-52 with AGM-129. Why wasn't B-2 equipped with AGM-129? Was it START treaty limitations?
The Soviet leadership would then face two problems.
- The B-2s, could be patrolling directly over Soviet territory, and could drop their weapons within a few minutes of receiving radio communications, giving the Soviets no time to react to an attack what so ever.
- Even if the Soviets wipe out all other US forces with a surprise attack, they would still have to contend with a force of dozens of B-2s, carrying hundreds of thermonuclear bombs, that could penetrate their territory and strike with impunity.
These two problems tremendously complicate Soviet planning, require the Soviets to expend enormous amount of resources just to defend their own territory, puts enormous psychological pressure on the Soviet leadership and gives gives extra options to the NATO side.
You cannot accomplish this with weapons that the enemy can see, fix, or attack. Thus it has to be an airborne long endurance, stealthy heavy bomber. Each B-2 is worth more than its weight in gold. Unsurprisingly, its price tag very aptly reflect its worth.)
Last edited by citanon; 24 Mar 10, at 04:18.
Knocking out an IADS doesn't mean you hit every missile site. Taking out the "integrated" part by wiping their C3 capability will do quite nicely. Exactly that high level infrastructure you're talking about. Warden's Rings and all that.
bleh...massive stupid moment on my part....
I guess that type of attack by the F-117s does address the most significant threat, although it doesn't provide a bulletproof guarantee against an opportunistic ZSU or tactical SAM shot. Still, if the strikers manage their flight profile right, if the Weasels are doing their job, and if ECM and EW is online, then those threats shouldn't be too big of an issue.
USNA 2014?
Save that they don't just do that they also can fire air launched cruise missiles and a number of glide based standoff weapons. There are not many of them which is a big part of why other forces delivered more munitions.Well... Subsonic aircraft with gravity nuclear bombs.
[QUOTE=NUS;725110
It tells us:
1) F-117 were assigned to the task. What else can be hit by a plane with no radar, no gun and very limited payload? Only known stationary targets of high value.
(Btw, Does anyone knows if F-117 can even hit moving target? If this information is unclassified ofc.)
[/QUOTE]
There was a fair amount of command center decapitation and suppression of air defenses.
The sighting systems that are public record weren't designed for it. It would be possible but fairly unlikely without a guidance system on the bomb which is possible with laser directions systems.
More than 90% of over all numbers were non-stealth planes.2) 90% of sorties were flown by non-stealth planes. Who might have thought?
Big surprise there especially with the convoy and target of opportunity hunting that took place with the retreat from Kuwait, and scud hunting.
Hum 21 B-2's
Roughly 90 bones available at the start of desert storm, Roughly 80 B-52's were around. Can we figure out why 40% of the strategic targets were destroyed by stealth planes when they were about 10% of the numbers?
Seems like they did really well to me there.
The _f-16 did stellar air to ground work all over the place in operation desert storm Once the Iraqi's were in shambles which happened very early it made lots of sense to just keep sending in missions as fast as possible with the aircraft capable of the fastest turn around time and the greatest numbers available. There are stories of mission planners actually having difficulties coming up for targets for planes to hit during ODS. Thats hardly the slower stealth aircraft without great numbers fault. I'd say look at the numbers for the first 48 to 72 hours to get a better idea of how stealth was use.d
After reading pages 2 and 3 of this thread I feel I must add something to this:
Speaking for myself, I'm damn glad guys like highsea, GGtharos, Jimmy and chogy are here to share some of their expertise with us. I know it must be hard set us fan boys straight without divulging into classified material and I can just picture you guys slapping yourselves in the forehead yelling at the monitor, " no you idiot, that's not how it works!"
I'd like to thankyou guys for telling us what you feel can be divulged and it's not unappreciated. The same goes for other professionals in the Land and Naval threads.
Thanks guys......
Last edited by YellowFever; 24 Mar 10, at 22:28.
I'm just a fan boy. Take anything I say with a grain of salt - I just happen to have access to bits and pieces of info here and there.
The rest I have to put together and it isn't always right.
Speaking for myself, I'm damn glad guys like highsea, GGtharos, Jimmy and chogy are here to share some of their expertise with us. I know it must be hard set us fan boys straight without divulging into classified material and I can just picture you guys slapping yourselves in the forehead yelling at the monitor, " no you idiot, that's not how it works!"
I agree 100%. They tread a tough line.After reading pages 2 and 3 of this thread I feel I must add something to this:
Speaking for myself, I'm damn glad guys like highsea, GGtharos, Jimmy and chogy are here to share some of their expertise with us. I know it must be hard set us fan boys straight without divulging into classified material and I can just picture you guys slapping yourselves in the forehead yelling at the monitor, " no you idiot, that's not how it works!"
I'd like to thankyou guys for telling us what you feel can be divulged and it's not unappreciated. The same goes for other professionals in the Land and Naval threads.
Thanks guys......
USNA 2014?
No kidding; I'm surprised I haven't been slapped down a time or two already!
"Yeah. See, we plan ahead, that way we don't do anything right now. Earl explained it to me." - Tremors, 1990
Theoretically, yes; as long as you keep the LTD on the target, the GBU should strike where you're aiming. But that requires a lot of concentration by the (lone) pilot (remember, no wizzo's in the F-117), and hopefully the GBU has enough kinetic energy to keep up with the target before it exceeds the GBU's flight envelope. Static targets are A LOT easier to hit than moving ones, obviously.
"Yeah. See, we plan ahead, that way we don't do anything right now. Earl explained it to me." - Tremors, 1990
Are you sure about it? As far as i know B-2 is designated as a delivery aircraft for the AGM-158 JASSM, but the missile program failed and currently they can't use any ALCMs.
B-2 were introduced in 1997. So, no B-2 in Desert Storm.and a number of glide based standoff weapons. There are not many of them which is a big part of why other forces delivered more munitions.
Hum 21 B-2's
Roughly 90 bones available at the start of desert storm...
Because there is nothing else they can do? F-117 had very limited options for combat use.Roughly 80 B-52's were around. Can we figure out why 40% of the strategic targets were destroyed by stealth planes when they were about 10% of the numbers?
Well, i don't know how capable Iraq IADS was in 1991, but i think it's safe to assume it was not even close to Soviet air defence F-117 were supposed to defeat.
Last edited by NUS; 26 Mar 10, at 07:34.
It's where your problem comesWell, i don't know how capable Iraq IADS was in 1991, but i think it's safe to assume
NUS, B-2 weapons load "included" B61-7, B61-11 ,B83-1. Apparently it can`t carry "Mixed" Nuke loads to a degree.
AGM-129 ACM (Retired completely by 2012) was supposed to be originally carried by B-2 but this plan was changed to B-52 only. The B-1 "was" capable of being converted to carry Nuke ALCMs but this is no longer a frontline capability. And the Boeing MOP 5K lb-er slated for B-2 but I am not sure where that program is at.
As well as a whole feast of conventional weapons.
In fact, I am not even sure the B-2 was ever flight tested with either ALCM or ACM. As said earlier though, don`t be fooled by the use of gravity nukes carried by B-2, if it can get to target undetected and get out undetected, it doesn`t really matter whether it carries stand off weapons or not.
"Liberty is a thing beyond all price.
The Bone is the B-1, not the B-2. You're right, there were no B-2s in DS, but that's not what he said.
B-2 were introduced in 1997. So, no B-2 in Desert Storm.
Not very limited, but for some missions there are better options.Because there is nothing else they can do? F-117 had very limited options for combat use.
This has already been addressed.Well, i don't know how capable Iraq IADS was in 1991, but i think it's safe to assume it was not even close to Soviet air defence F-117 were supposed to defeat.
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