Thread: Israel out of NATO event because of Gaza, Turkish official says

Originally Posted by Kermanshahi

No, the existance of Kurds is not recognised by the country. And this is a negative thing.

do you have any idea about the word unitary state?

considering your other answers i think your ignorence is much more higher than i ever imagine.

Never. But neither has a Kurd ever been elected President of Turkey.

heres an other ignorence

they can't be officially discriminated.

because of the states unitary

Kurds never founded this country. Turks founded it and invaded and annexed Kurdistan into it, denying Kurds recognition or any cultural rights (though the cultural restrictions have largeley (but not fully) been dropped in the last ~10 years), still the Turkish constitution reflects the thinking of the founders of Turkey that this was to be a nation by Turks and for Turks. Kurds, Armenians, Arabs and other minorities could be part of the country as individuals, but theri ethnic identities were never accepted into the nation.

it is obvious that you can not understand what you read or you are highly biaised.

we found this country together, our ancestors fought together in all fronts, didi you ever visited Gallipoli? obviously not.

plus recognising as a minority rather than a normal citizen is a negative thing.
as Ataturk sad the people who found the Turkish Republic is called "TheTurkish Nation"

Turkey is a unitary country.

How many Kurdish Presidents has Turkey had?

just an exemple:
Turgut Özal was Kurdish,

latest inner affairs ministers were mostly Kurdish orignated...

In Turkish parliament however, there are no Kurdish parties in Turkish parliament, only some Kurds which ren as independents.

than what is DTP???..

i wonder what would occur if anybody would say that Iranian parliamament would recognise PEJAK as the natural and true representative of Kurds in Iran...

There is alot of debate about the fact that Turkey is gradually becoming an Islamic country. My answer is so what? Half of Europe has a state religion. There is no fuss about this. So what's the fuss about Turkey potentially becoming an Islamic Republic (not that it will)? I think the problem here is Islamophobia. Everyone views devout muslims as terrorists which cannot be trusted and must be eradicated from the face of the earth (thanks to the babaric animals which perpetrated 9/11). Hence, what must be done is the reversing of such impression. The world must be informed that there are many peaceful Islamic countries in the world and that not all muslims are long beirded terrorists. E.g. Azerbeijan, Kazakstan, Tatarstan, Turkey, Bosnia are muslim nations.

Turkey was the centre of Islam for in excess of 600 years. There was no such thing as terrorism then. It had a flourishing Jewish and Christian population. It's Sultan once also held the title of Kazar-i-Rum (Cezar of the Romans).

The German Chancellor today is from the Christian Democrats Party. The Turkish Prime Minister is from the AK Party (similar to Muslim Democrats Party). The Turkish PM has abolished the death panalty, commenced dialogue with Armenia, improved relations with Greece, restored Armenian churches in Turkey, recognized the jurisdiction of the Europe Court of Human Rights, brought every piece of Turkish legislation into conformity with the European Union, increased Turkish GDP (PPP) from a mere $240 billion to $1 trillion etc etc.
Could this be viewed as a radicalisation of Turkey? No it can't. So why is there all this hype? Well the answer is that Turkey has started to act on it's own. It is viewing a multi-dimensional foreign policy which is at times in conflict with EU and US policies.

Originally Posted by Castellano

Benny Morris is universally regarded as the best historian of the period, even for the hard left, and I don't remember his exact estimates but the majority of Arabs left out of their own will.

Most of the Arabs who were expelled were those in the corridor Tel Aviv-Jerusalem, for obvious military reasons.

But in the rest of the country, for example in cities like Haifa, the Israelis literally asked the Arabs no to flee. There are incontrovertible proofs of all that.

Well, that'd explain why there is such a large Arab population in Northern Israel.

As for proofs there are also proofs of massacres committed by Jewish millitia such as Lehi, Palmach, ect. which killed many Arab civilians. Most Arabs which "left out of free will", infact fled so as not to be murdered by these people.

True. But I was talking more about the current situation, not historically.

Well the situation in Turkey has improved a lot while it in the West Bank and Gaza hasn't at all. But than at least Israel is negotiating for a Palestinian state and they evacuated Gaza. Turks will hear nothing of a Kurdish state, not even autonomy.

Originally Posted by Big K

do you have any idea about the word unitary state?

considering your other answers i think your ignorence is much more higher than i ever imagine.

What if Israeli constitution would say all Arabs are infact Jews, would you consider that as "just being a unitary state".

In Iran we don't go around saying all Azeris, or all Kurds are Persians, either. If we would, they'd all be pretty p*ssed off.

heres an other ignorence

I know all Turkish Presidents, none of which was Kurd.

because of the states unitary

No, because you do not recognise their existance.

Atleast Israel has the decency to recognise the existance of Arabs.

it is obvious that you can not understand what you read or you are highly biaised.

It is you who are highly biased. Raised in Turkey, were you? Ever considered the fact that what your dictators want you to think isn't stricly the truth?

we found this country together, our ancestors fought together in all fronts, didi you ever visited Gallipoli? obviously not.

There were Kurds which fought in the Turkish Army, no doubt. But they did not represent the Kurdish people, they were just there either as a job, to get money, not cause they liked the country, or cause they were forced to (conscription). The majority of Kurds joined the Arabs in an armed uprising against the Turks, cause the British promised them an independent state. Pitty that both were double-crossed by the British.

plus recognising as a minority rather than a normal citizen is a negative thing.

You think recognising a minority means discriminating them? I'm not saying Turks should pass aparheid style laws about Turks and Kurds (which I don't dobut, many of you would like), but you should recognise the Kurdish language and the existance of Kurdish people in the state.

as Ataturk sad the people who found the Turkish Republic is called "TheTurkish Nation"

Turkey is a unitary country.

The state's constitution does not say this is a nation of Turks and Kurds together, both are equal citizens of the nation. The constitution sais this is a nation of Turks and Turks only, Kurds exist, they are Turks. The Turkish language was the only recognised one and everyone was forced to learn it, the Kurdish language was banned and so were all Kurdish celebrations. 12,500 cities and villages were re-named, given Turkish names.

But the Kurds and not Turks, they are Kurds. As individuals they might be equal citizens because they are viewed by law as Turks. But their identity, their culture, their language, infact their ethnic group, is not viewed as part of the Turkish state.

Originally Posted by Big K

just an exemple:
Turgut Özal was Kurdish,

latest inner affairs ministers were mostly Kurdish orignated...

If you call Turgut Ozal a Kurd, he'd be a bigget traitor for his people than Mahmoud Abbas. Turgut Ozal was a Turk, he had some Kurdish blood, but he didn't consider himself a Kurd either.

Originally Posted by Big K

than what is DTP???..

DTP couldn't run. There are however some 20 independents in the parliament who are members of DTP.

i wonder what would occur if anybody would say that Iranian parliamament would recognise PEJAK as the natural and true representative of Kurds in Iran...

Iran is a one-state party, PJAK is by far not the only banned party. But although they have a bad name in the country, both among Kurds and non-Kurds, and I don't like them either. What they want isn't much different than what most Iranians want: freedom, democracy and federalism.

But unlike the PKK in Turkey. In Iran the PJAK is a totaly insignificant organisation. They have absolutely no activity inside Iran, there is no long bloody war going on. They are just a few hundred peasants in the mountains of Northern Iraq which every few months (sometimes every few weeks) have a little gunbattle with border guards or military patroll. Once in a while (every year or so) a small squad manages to cross the border and do some bombing or shooting in a city. Casualties for Iranian security forces, PJAK members and civilians together have been about 120-150 in the last 4 years.

In Turkey the anti-PKK politics is a very important policy for all Turkish politicians, they talk about it a lot they contact a lot of other nations about it to try isolate the PKK. But when an attack in Iran happens the government doesn't even mention the PJAK, they just say Zionists are trying to destabilise the country.

Originally Posted by district

There is alot of debate about the fact that Turkey is gradually becoming an Islamic country. My answer is so what? Half of Europe has a state religion. There is no fuss about this. So what's the fuss about Turkey potentially becoming an Islamic Republic (not that it will)? I think the problem here is Islamophobia. Everyone views devout muslims as terrorists which cannot be trusted and must be eradicated from the face of the earth (thanks to the babaric animals which perpetrated 9/11). Hence, what must be done is the reversing of such impression. The world must be informed that there are many peaceful Islamic countries in the world and that not all muslims are long beirded terrorists. E.g. Azerbeijan, Kazakstan, Tatarstan, Turkey, Bosnia are muslim nations.

Turkey was the centre of Islam for in excess of 600 years. There was no such thing as terrorism then. It had a flourishing Jewish and Christian population. It's Sultan once also held the title of Kazar-i-Rum (Cezar of the Romans).

The German Chancellor today is from the Christian Democrats Party. The Turkish Prime Minister is from the AK Party (similar to Muslim Democrats Party). The Turkish PM has abolished the death panalty, commenced dialogue with Armenia, improved relations with Greece, restored Armenian churches in Turkey, recognized the jurisdiction of the Europe Court of Human Rights, brought every piece of Turkish legislation into conformity with the European Union, increased Turkish GDP (PPP) from a mere $240 billion to $1 trillion etc etc.
Could this be viewed as a radicalisation of Turkey? No it can't. So why is there all this hype? Well the answer is that Turkey has started to act on it's own. It is viewing a multi-dimensional foreign policy which is at times in conflict with EU and US policies.

This is a problem with the Europeans, they see Saudi Arabia and they think Turkey is gonna become like that. They see the AKP as sort of Turkish al-Qaeda (well not terrorists, but the same ideology) and the secular MHP and the generals as supporters of Europe-style freedom, secularism, tolerance.
While this couldn't be any further from the truth. The AKP is so extremely moderate they would be called infidels in a country like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. What they have been doing is only improving human rights in Turkey and rights for minorities aswell as democracy and never have they tried to enforce Shari'a law on people who don't want to.
The Generals who used to rule Turkey and the MHP, on the other hand are nothing less than facists. If Europeans would know a little bit more about the past of these extremists and their ideology, than they would change their mind.

I have the feeling that the Turks around will butcher you.Meanwhile I have to ask you:what's wrong with states where citizenship=nationality?

Originally Posted by Mihais

I have the feeling that the Turks around will butcher you.

Oh I got a lot of experience in arguing with Turks.

Meanwhile I have to ask you:what's wrong with states where citizenship=nationality?

If you want to have a state which is baded on 1 ethnic group, it's the state of that ethnic group, their language is the official language, than you should not force other ethnic groups to be part of that country.

Either allow Kurdistan to become independent (which most Kurds would want), or recognise Kurdish in a status equal to Turkish.

you do not understand the concept of unitary state, dont you?

ahh the federalism...yess heres the thing under your tongue isnt it?

federalism will not occur in here, and about the constitutional issue,

you keep saying this is a Turkish and only Turkish state....who are those Turks??...i am not...the word "Turk" in the constitution is not to be taken as a etnic root but like being an Ottoman or American...

Ataturk sad that "how happy he who says i am Turk" he did not say "who IS Turk" but "who says i am Turk"

in Turkey our nationalism is not coming from ethnic roots (because no one can say that hes pure plus according Gumilev real Turks were exterminated around 750's) but from the soil we live upon.

but you cant understand this i see

oh btw, those few peasants of PJAK just killed a general...yes they are insgnificant.

and i recognise your position by your statements we encounter your type frequently you have absolutely misinformed or/and biaised.

In Turkey the anti-PKK politics is a very important policy for all Turkish politicians, they talk about it a lot they contact a lot of other nations about it to try isolate the PKK. But when an attack in Iran happens the government doesn't even mention the PJAK, they just say Zionists are trying to destabilise the country.

you judge importance of PJAK by that?????...

end of discussion,

live in peace...

Originally Posted by Big K

you do not understand the concept of unitary state, dont you?

Oh yes I do, but if you wan to have a state like that, go and have it without the Kurds.

ahh the federalism...yess heres the thing under your tongue isnt it?

federalism will not occur in here, and about the constitutional issue,

I know it won't occur, Turks will never let it. But if you really want to live in peace than you have to give in to some of the will of the Kordish people.

you keep saying this is a Turkish and only Turkish state....who are those Turks??...i am not...the word "Turk" in the constitution is not to be taken as a etnic root but like being an Ottoman or American...

Ataturk sad that "how happy he who says i am Turk" he did not say "who IS Turk" but "who says i am Turk"

in Turkey our nationalism is not coming from ethnic roots (because no one can say that hes pure plus according Gumilev real Turks were exterminated around 750's) but from the soil we live upon.

but you cant understand this i see

If Turk and Turk actually had a different meaning, than why is it that the Turkish language (the language of ethnic Turks) is the only recognised language and why was Kurdish language banned for 80 years long? (Yeah I know it's not banned anymore, but it reflects the true nature of this nation) and the fact these two words Turk (per ethnicity) and Turk (per nationality) are exactly the same word and the country is called Turkiye are very much related to each other and infact the language-thing shows that these two words actually do have the same meaning. The country was called Turkey because it is the nation of ethnic Turks and all citizens of the nation are supposed to be ethnic Turks. However Kemal got greedy and invaded Kurdish areas, than he and his successors tried to Turkify them, turn them into ethnic Turks, destroy Kurdish culture, but it failed.

oh btw, those few peasants of PJAK just killed a general...yes they are insgnificant.

That general was killed in Baluchestan not Kordestan. It is completely on the other side of Iran (Kordestan, Kermanshah, West-Azerbaijan, Illam, te provinces with high Kurdish population are in the North-West, Balochestan is in the South-East) and the group which claimed responsibility for the attack was Jundollah, a Sunni extremist group which like PJAK operates from Norther Iraq, they operate from Pakistan which can do due to the instability there. They have done a lot more harm to Iran than PJAK has ever done but Iran is building a large concrete wall on the border now, problem is the Iran-Pakistan border is quite long and the terrain is quite rough. It has been under construction for a while now, it will be finished in a few years. That will keep out the suicide bombers.

and i recognise your position by your statements we encounter your type frequently you have absolutely misinformed or/and biaised.

Yes, there are 20 milion Kurds in Turkey and over a milion Kurds which fled Turkey, I bet you encounter them frequently.

you judge importance of PJAK by that?????...

end of discussion,

live in peace...

If you read my post you'd see I said much more than that.

Originally Posted by district

the problem here is Islamophobia. Everyone views devout muslims as terrorists which cannot be trusted and must be eradicated from the face of the earth (thanks to the babaric animals which perpetrated 9/11). Hence, what must be done is the reversing of such impression. The world must be informed that there are many peaceful Islamic countries in the world and that not all muslims are long beirded terrorists. E.g. Azerbeijan, Kazakstan, Tatarstan, Turkey, Bosnia are muslim nations.

How did bosnia become muslim?

Turkey was the centre of Islam for in excess of 600 years. There was no such thing as terrorism then. It had a flourishing Jewish and Christian population. It's Sultan once also held the title of Kazar-i-Rum (Cezar of the Romans).

I dunno about that,fear that the Sultan would take your male children to be raise din his faith, to wage war on your faith is a pretty terrifying thought. Terror come sin many forms and for 600 years the form Europe feared most was the Sultan, who while claiming the title of Kazar-i-rum was actually the killer of the Roman Empire.

Could this be viewed as a radicalisation of Turkey? No it can't. So why is there all this hype? Well the answer is that Turkey has started to act on it's own. It is viewing a multi-dimensional foreign policy which is at times in conflict with EU and US policies.

Europe's never quite gotten over its racism and distrust of the turks. Part of that distrust is founded in fact- the Ottomans very nearly did over run Europe. Of course part of it is arrogance, and the two combined to keep Turkey treated as a second class citizen, European by virtue of the last remnant of an empire- Eastern Thrace, but nothing else.

Attaturk tried to make Turks into Europeans, Europeans wouldn't let them, and now Turkey has to find its way as something not Ottoman, and not European.

Originally Posted by Big K

end of discussion,

Well, there was never any room for discussion to start with. There is no question that Arabs are, and have historically been incomparably better treated in Israel than Kurds in Turkey. In War and in Peace. Nobody serious doubts it, and to suggest otherwise is simply a joke.

It has taken decades for the Turkish state even to acknowledge that another people with a distinct language and culture lives within its borders. All this talk of "mountain Turks" is just a fairy tale, no matter how many people in Turkey are deluded by it - Kurdish language is Indoeuropean, it doesn't even belong to the same family as Turkish.
And the all-Turk Turkey rings like some kind of ethno-fascist project - even if it is contemplated like a vocation. There might be, and in fact there are people in Turkey who remain unconvinced and they ought to be respected, and more recognition granted to Kurdish language rights and political rights within Turkey.

In these points, the Islamists and the militarists seem to be single-minded, though.

Of course, discussing these issues would be dangerous in Turkey itself. Among others, the notorious Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code sees to that; and the loosely defined "denigrating Turkishness" business is a dangerous business in Turkey. That's why questions such as "How many Kurdish PM are there in Turkey?" are utterly misleading. Any Kurdish PM, or any media outlet that speaks of Turkey in the terms Israeli Arab PMs and media speak of Israel, would be jailed if not liquidated.

Originally Posted by Kermanshahi

Well, that'd explain why there is such a large Arab population in Northern Israel.

Yes. And the large Arab population in Galilee is proof by itself that there was no policy to expel Arabs from Israel.

As for proofs there are also proofs of massacres committed by Jewish millitia such as Lehi, Palmach, ect. which killed many Arab civilians. Most Arabs which "left out of free will", infact fled so as not to be murdered by these people.

Lehi and Palmach were very different.

I insist that at the very least there were many circumstances and different motives for the Arabs to flee. Some out of fear. Some of them in the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem corridor were in fact expelled by the Haganah. Others were persuaded or even ordered to evacuate by the invading Arab armies.

In any case, the real reason there were any Arab refugees is because several Arab nations started a War to liquidate Israel - an explicit extermination War in the Arab leaders own words, and made abundantly clear on the ground when Arabs attacked Israeli civilians or captured soldiers.

It was the War that created the refugees, and the War was started by the Arabs.

Well the situation in Turkey has improved a lot while it in the West Bank and Gaza hasn't at all. But than at least Israel is negotiating for a Palestinian state and they evacuated Gaza. Turks will hear nothing of a Kurdish state, not even autonomy.

I totally agree.

"Turkey has never, in its history, been on the side of persecutors. It has always defended the oppressed,"


Recep Tayyip Erdoğan
Sunday, October 18, 2009

Erdo?an slams Israel as a 'persecutor' - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

Originally Posted by Castellano

"Turkey has never, in its history, been on the side of persecutors. It has always defended the oppressed,"


Recep Tayyip Erdoğan
Sunday, October 18, 2009

Erdo?an slams Israel as a 'persecutor' - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

yes, last time we rescued Jews from Spanish inquisition...weird isnt it?