LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With QuoteYes and I am not doubting the capabilities of that plane. Its a very capable plane but so long as its priced that high,French would find it hard to find customer's for it.Originally Posted by BenRoethig
Kommunist: I am not sure from where you are getting these cost numbers as mine are entirely different.
So as you can see clearly, Rafale[alongwith Typhoon] is costlier than F-35 and it certainly does not bring with itself those advantages.
To me Rafale is a very good plane but the only thing that went against it is Price. I wish only if that thing was priced a bit lower.
However, Rafale has gone and so should Typhoon. To me we just dont have to play the Quality game, we also have to play the number game.
Last edited by Sumku; 18 Apr 09, at 23:03.
Yes and I am not doubting the capabilities of that plane. Its a very capable plane but so long as its priced that high,French would find it hard to find customer's for it.
Yes.
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.
I would be surprised if India can make a decision, order and have the planes built before 2015 -- and by then it's just 15 years to 2030...
I am surprised India is considering to buy as many as 126 (and even 200 has been mentioned) of a 4. gen fighter -- would it not make more sense for India to focus on the 5. gen plane, and get that ready and up and running asap, in large numbers? I can understand they need a "stop gap", just like Australia with her SuperHornets, but 126 or more? A rather large stop gap... but perhaps the FGFA will still take quite some time to be ready? Or will the FGFA be more like F-22, extremely expensive "air superiority" fighter, produced in small numbers?
Another thing I don't understand about this, is that it seems many are suggesting India is likely to buy Western this time -- sounds fine, but how does that fit with the development of the FGFA together with Russia? In particular if they want to reduce the number of different aircrafts they are operating?
If India really wants to work with Western companies, why don't they leave the FGFA behind and sign up for the F-35? It could be used for their carriers, and could replace all other a/c as well. India could keep the LCA as a cheap, lightweight fighter of course, and use the F-35 for all the rest. They would get a huge advantage compared to China, and in the long run it would be a very cheap solution as well. And it would definitely strengthen the India-US ties.
Loke
Norway was offered 48 Gripen NG for 62 million USD pr. plane. This was not fly-away, but included training, spares, simulators, manuals, and data helmets.
The price for F-35 was 56 million USD -- this is not LRIP of course, and the price to an F-35 partner -- "export prices" may be different?
Anyway, the price of the a/c will be different for different deals. Presumably India will get cheap a/c in any case, since most will be assembled locally? Therefore, support, upgrade, maintainance, and all the extra equipment will probably be a substantial percentage of the total costs... and those costs would probably be higher for Rafale than for the other planes.
Loke
A couple of possible factors
India has decided that its best route lays with strategic partnerships with Russia and the US, not the EU.
French price hikes on the Mirage 2000 upgrades
French fumbling of the whole tenure. Ya they offered a lot but have not been real energetic in following up.
The US is offering more bang for the buck in both the SH and F-16IN
Both the S/H and F-16 are flown by other countries and well appreciated by them while the Rafale is only flown by France.
India has other procurement needs that only Russia and the US are likely able to provide.
France does not have an upcoming stealth project like the PAK-FA or F-35 for India to buy into.
Norwy did not choose Gripen, but perhaps it could fulfill Indias needs? Or will it be too similar to the LCA?
Info compiled by a guy called Signatory on other forums:
Gripen NG is only 4% heavier than JAS 39C but comes with over 22% more engine thrust.
Engine improvement dry thrust: 25%
Engine improvement wet thrust: 22%
The F-414G engine will provide 20 to 25% more thrust over the existing RM12.
The NG Demonstrator has flown the new airframe and engine since May 2008.
Test phase 1 has performed maximum speed trials and heavy stores flutter tests.
Test phase 2 to start from 2009 will include tests of new sensors such as AESA.
Gripen NG Basic Specs (1)
Number of Stations 10
Empty weight 7.0 ton
MTOW >16 ton
Internal fuel >3.3 ton
External fuel 3.8 ton
Payload >6 ton
Gripen NG Range (2)
Range is increased an average of 40% over the JAS 39C as both the internal and external fuel capability is expanded.
Combat radius: 1,300 Km + 30 minutes on station with A2A weapons.
Range (one-way): 2,500 Km on internal fuel
Ferry range (one-way): 4,075 Km with external fuel
Combat Radius estimate: 1,800 km with A2A weapons
Cost per flight hour: < 3000USD
Super cruise: > 1.2 M
Engine replacement: < 1 hour
Turnaround time: < 10 minutes
Landing distance: < 500 m
Loke
[QUOTE=Loke;633604
If India really wants to work with Western companies, why don't they leave the FGFA behind and sign up for the F-35? It could be used for their carriers, and could replace all other a/c as well. India could keep the LCA as a cheap, lightweight fighter of course, and use the F-35 for all the rest. They would get a huge advantage compared to China, and in the long run it would be a very cheap solution as well. And it would definitely strengthen the India-US ties.
Loke[/QUOTE]
There is no western 5 Gen program currently in to which India can participate. There is only one i.e JSF and given the number of existing patners it is not worth while investing.
The reason to go with Russia on 5 gen is that it means equal partners and no other clients to delay delivery when they go in to production.
Plus India gets to modify the entire aircraft how it deems fit.
And MRCA is a way ot getting in western teck fo future programs. Prevents from IAF being a entire "Russian" based AF and also gets to dip into western tech
Logistics streamlining does not seem to be a high priority for many of the Indian procurements. India, you will recall, has operated Western (Jaguar, Mirage 2000, Harrier) and Russian (Su, MiG, Tupolev) aircraft together for many decades now. If it was a high priority, they would have gone tooth-and-nails to buy up the mothballed M2K production line, or bought more Mig-29s a decade back. It is also not a simple hi-lo mix them seem to be aiming at, but a spread-spectrum capabilities. Same story with other systems as well.
Program unit costs dont mean anything to India. Its the Unit Procurement costs what I quoted.
F-22 is quoted as $338 mil as program unit cost!!
Everyone has opinions, only some count.
You just now implied that Rafale is cheaper than SH and Gripen
The Gripen is a good airplane, but this is the MRCA program, not LRCA.
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.
Could someone please explain to me why India didn't opt for the F35 program ?
Was it not given the option ? Lack of interest ? $ ?
The PAK FA project is ambiguous at best. Hasn't even completed its first flight as of now. At this point, I'm not sure how wise it is for India to put in billions if there is an alternative.
India has never been offered the F-35.
AFAIK, the F-35 is a potential for those operating the F-16 as a replacement (of course subject to pentagon approval). Secondly, even if India got the approval, the long waiting list would mean anyone would need to wait a decade or more before getting the first deliveries.
And with India's close ties with Russia, getting its hand on the F-35 won't be that easy.
Point taken, but that begs the question, why was Gripen invited in the first place? And furthermore, why is it still in, while the first Medium fighter (Rafale) got the boot?
One possible explanation is that the Indians are not at all interested in Gripen for the MMRCA program, but they take the opportunity to learn as much as possible about Gripen -- knowledge that can be useful in their own LCA program. Gripen is after all a successful light fighter, with growth potential (as demonstrated by Gripen NG.)
Loke
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Share this thread with friends: