Originally Posted by antimony
I guess they should have brought Carla in to have a chat with Anthony)
What an idea sirji !
" THe SiLEnt KNighT.
The Super Hornet is fundamentally a different aircraft to the Hornet.
I attended a Super Hornet briefing for RAAF in early March and it was openly stated that these aircraft are seen as front line and competitive till 2030
Why? I do find it interesting that there is an expectation that a full transfer of technology and an abandonment of things like ITARs issues seems to be assumed when long term allies like UK, Canada, Japan, Sth Korea etc.. don't try and hold any sale to ransom. We share technology with each other on a quid pro quo basis - its not held to ransom (and this has been a leverage card played by some in the Indian Press)
So, what transfer of tech was Rafale going to provide? It's not fitted with an operational AESA, and yet the country with the most AESA experience and units in operation (let alone production) is supposed to hand over the sourceware and codes for future development? Can you imagine how any of the USA's current long term and historically persistent allies would trust her from that point on.
Rafale may well be a nice platform, but its an orphan, and that means logistic support and sustainment issues, it impacts upon maint capacity (look at a recent example of the C-17 to see how it can work when an allied partner has problems "off country"
So, Sorry, thats not how it works.
I've done procurement in major assets, and I've worked with Indian companies in the procurement and assessment process - I think its rather rude to cast dispersions on people in the tender and evaluation process just because someone favourite aircraft didn't get up.
The selection process is tedious and I would suggest that anyone casting a black cloud on a modern procurement process has never been involved - otherwise they'd know exactly what we have to deal with
Last edited by gf0012-aust; 18 Apr 09, at 08:53.
IMHO, the chances of SH just increased exponentially. Now, it should be the SH or Mig-35, or a 35-65 split between the two.
Everyone has opinions, only some count.
It's the same age as other 4th gen platforms
It's mainly carrier based because its primary and initial user is the USN and they have CATOBAR aircraft.
RAAF are land based only (we don't have a fixed wing combat requirement in our Fleet Air Arm)
so 2 users. 2 different employment methodologies and an aircraft that at frame perspective is the same age as the other contenders. Incl Typhoon and Rafale
There are a couple of issues here.
Logistics wise it would be sensible to stay with the russians assuming that 1 and 2 are dealt with - because there is already a substantial support structure, raise, train and sustain model in place - if the Indian Govt goes western it will mean a new logistics footprint added into the mix
- Indian Govt is unhappy with some aspects of recent procurement with Russian platforms
- Indian Govt has made it clear that it wants to buy more western equipment - thats for a number of reasons
- Indian Exchequer has made it abundantly clear that the days of having multiple platforms in service is madness - it does not provide a capability redundancy and its a nightmare RTS footprint
However, and I said this some 10 months ago, India would and has been buying more western kit
The issue is whether India is willing and ready to break and rebuild her existing logistics as well as RTS for what they see as a different capability.
She also needs to understand that full ToT on some of this technology is not going to happen - and that it can be negotiated down but not away.
Finally, there are a number of Indian companies quietly negotiating to have relationships with other western companies - this is going to impact upon more than just this aircraft program
my 2c anyway
Too bad for the Rafale as it’s a very fine aircraft. Hopefully this wasn’t the last chance for the fighter’s first foreign sale…
IMO politics will play just as big a role in choosing the aircraft as technical factors. For that reason they might go with an F-18/MiG-35 split?
The Gripen is a good aircraft but does it have the track record of the F-16 & F-18?
What is the possibility that the chosen aircraft will be made in India under a licensed production agreement? If something like this is done I think it'll only happen if a further batch of aircraft is ordered.
Nebula82.
Last edited by nebula82; 18 Apr 09, at 09:24.
We have the MKIs in that category of fighters. So the F-15s were not the right fighter for MRCA. Otherwise Boeing would have offered it.
Libya has been mentioned. But there are no more major airforce sales in the pipeline. All the typical majors have made their decisions already
That would be a logistical nightmare (again) and would incur some more wrath from the Indian ExChequer
It's a good aircraft but it needs to be competitive against the Request for Tender and the scope of work that was developed in that tender. The scope of work is usually quite complex and is way beyond these kinds of internet discussions
The RFT will already define what was required - if the Indian Govt did not define it within the RFT when it was released, then it could only be offered separately by the vendors. They still have to meet the RFT-SOW before anything else though.
It (F15SE) was developed after the RFT was released. Other wise it would have also been offered to other RFT requests such as Sth Korea and Singapore.
They can't offer it after the Tender has closed otherwise it impugns the integrity of the entire RFT process and they would have to re-release it to all competitors - that would be singularly expensive and leave the Indian Govt exposed to litigation etc...
The deal is going to be inclusive of all tech know how to train and maintain the aircraft including the production line to manufacture it at HAL.
Thats got nothing to do with the greater issue of a change in an existing capability matrix.
Its a significant on-cost. Buying a new fleet is not just about buying the platform - it also involves raise, train, sustain and it it potentially involves a very significant shift in doctrine.
Unless you can see the formal documents on what was in the original RFT - then everything in here is really speculation.
The RFT is not released to the general public - all you will see is what is unclassified and given to the media - the media then generally pretends to know whats going on and runs their own story.
A full RFT includes classified material relating to other force and doctrine vectors. That never goes public. Thats why interoperability and integration is such a huge issue. Its the "hidden" classified caveats that are the decision makers - not what is sent out as a media release.
Looking at the future, and the emphasis on interoperability between the US and Indian forces in the IOR, and also the recent purchase of the C 130, and P8s are an indication that the Indian defense planners are trying to lean on the west now after years of reliance on the Russians.
Mind you that all these years we had no one other than Russia to rely on for cheap but good platforms. Now though cost is the criteria, its no the sole criteria.
Ive always liked the gripen (reasonable cost, low maintenance, rough field capability) but the way things are going i think the superbug will win out in the end.
For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!
Too similar to the Tejas as well.
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