Say bye to F-22

**BudW** · 06 Apr 09,, 23:09

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/firs...pons-programs/

**Jimmy** · 07 Apr 09,, 02:05

Preparing to fight today's war...tomorrow?

I think I'll avoid weighing in on this topic for now, I'm likely to say something...hmm...impolite.

Edit: VVV I think we'll see McCain glide more to the left, like he was prior to election season.

**LetsTalk** · 07 Apr 09,, 02:29

I will say it, it was a mistake.

Apparently there is support on both sides of the isle on this.

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., the 2008 GOP presidential nominee, said in a written statement that Gates' plan was a "major step in the right direction."
Got this from the link.

**omon** · 07 Apr 09,, 06:58

i'll pbly gonna get flamed for this one, but imo there is no need for f22. it is the best plane, but planes that us has now are more than enough, every conflict since ww2 shows that. every conflict that had usaf, or other us military branches involved, look more like a slaughter than a fight, there was no real resistance since nam.
and future wars, with whom?? any country in the world has planes inferior to today's us planes,(and pretty much the rest of the hardware), even newest su, may be a good plane but pilot training is the best in usa, plus planes alone don,t win wars, joint effort of all resources and tactics do. and that is what makes us army the best.

**chakos** · 07 Apr 09,, 07:38

So what??? The US still gets 187 of an aircraft that has no peer. What else do you need? What threat do any of you see that will not be able to be handled comprehensivelly by 2000+ JSF, 187 F-22 and a bucketload (not sure how many) of superbugs as well as any remaining legacy aircraft. Is it not enough to be the most powerful air force in the world... do you need to be able to defeat all other air forces in the world at the same time???

Lets get a sense of perspective here. There is an economic crisis, other military programs/organisation need the funds more and the overal deduction in defence spending is like 4%. The problem people have is they get all carried away on the 'porn' equipment. F22s are sexy but im sure soldiers could use better radios, better small arms, upgraded facilities etc. Its the boring stuff that wins wars... In WW2 the Germans flew the Me 262... definatelly the F22 of its day but they lost... and when it was all said and done didnt Patton say that it was the Jeep that won the war for the allies? An ugly, generally underpowered, unarmed (mostly) and unarmoured utility vehicle.

I would be pretty confident in saying that Islamic insurgents dont care how many 5th Gen combat aircraft you have... With decent ground forces you could call in effective air strikes whether its in the form of an F22, a B52 or a P51 for that sake. Problem is keeping the numbers of troops up, keeping them equipped and keeping them trained so they are at the top of their game.

**jlvfr** · 07 Apr 09,, 09:27

"new Air Force transport plane would be ended"

What new plane? Do they mean the C-27? Or was there another in the horizon?

**Kommunist** · 07 Apr 09,, 09:35

Its not as if the tech will rot away or anything. The Raptor in its current state is 20+ yeards ahead of its nearest competition (excluding F-35). If need arises for F-22, production can be restarted, provided new threats to US Air supremacy arise. However, I dont see that happening in the near future. I'm sure if China comes up with a very good J-XX, or Russia/India with a very good PAK-FA, F-22 production can resume. And, regarding the other things, like the APG-77, etc, their improvements and R&D can continue without any problems, IMO, so that future raptors are even more capable than todays.

(The price is a major factor in current economic scenario, its not F-15 or F-16 that you can get in the hundreds and thousands. Other things are more of a concern now to revive the economy, than an aircraft which offers capability only dreamt of by others)

My 2c on the topic.

**jackprince** · 07 Apr 09,, 09:47

Originally Posted by omon

i'll pbly gonna get flamed for this one, but imo there is no need for f22. it is the best plane, but planes that us has now are more than enough, every conflict since ww2 shows that. every conflict that had usaf, or other us military branches involved, look more like a slaughter than a fight, there was no real resistance since nam.
and future wars, with whom?? any country in the world has planes inferior to today's us planes,(and pretty much the rest of the hardware), even newest su, may be a good plane but pilot training is the best in usa, plus planes alone don,t win wars, joint effort of all resources and tactics do. and that is what makes us army the best.

US a/cs are superior in technology, but except for F-22 and F-35, which being 5th Gen., none other holds definite upper hand and well, rest of the world is or will be catching up pretty soon. In 4.5+ class Eurofighter, Rafale, Su-30, Su-35s and MiGs are as good, and may be better in some cases. US a/cs has superior radar and other avionics, but for now. Can you be sure Russia is too far behind to catch up or China won't have something in their arsenal.

Since Vietnam, in fact since WW2, US hadn't faced an enemy in battlefield which is technologically comparable to it. But who can say it won't face China in battlefield in near future? Today's China is far more advanced than what it was during Vietnam or Korean war.

Originally Posted by chakos

So what??? The US still gets 187 of an aircraft that has no peer. What else do you need? What threat do any of you see that will not be able to be handled comprehensivelly by 2000+ JSF, 187 F-22 and a bucketload (not sure how many) of superbugs as well as any remaining legacy aircraft. Is it not enough to be the most powerful air force in the world... do you need to be able to defeat all other air forces in the world at the same time???

Lets get a sense of perspective here. There is an economic crisis, other military programs/organisation need the funds more and the overal deduction in defence spending is like 4%. The problem people have is they get all carried away on the 'porn' equipment. F22s are sexy but im sure soldiers could use better radios, better small arms, upgraded facilities etc. Its the boring stuff that wins wars... In WW2 the Germans flew the Me 262... definatelly the F22 of its day but they lost... and when it was all said and done didnt Patton say that it was the Jeep that won the war for the allies? An ugly, generally underpowered, unarmed (mostly) and unarmoured utility vehicle.

I would be pretty confident in saying that Islamic insurgents dont care how many 5th Gen combat aircraft you have... With decent ground forces you could call in effective air strikes whether its in the form of an F22, a B52 or a P51 for that sake. Problem is keeping the numbers of troops up, keeping them equipped and keeping them trained so they are at the top of their game.

The scenario of WW2 and today's world is far different in case of USA. USA played a key role in both WW1 and WW2, and safely because of it's distance from actual battlefield. But, God help us, if there's gonna be a WW3, USA wouldn't have that factor anymore. Since the WW2 USA is ahead of others in the game because it has been technologically ahead of others. But, here in South Asia there's already a arms race is going one and the most important player here is Russia, which regarding weapons system technology is almost comparable.

A defence cut is necessary in deed. But, did you notice that it's not only F-22 that is under the blade, but various other projects, including part of Future Combat Systems modernization program? Also the Missile defence program? I am sure further F-22 may not be needed when the war is in Afghanistan or Iraq, or even Iran - but can you be sure who'd be your enemy after 10 years, the way international politics is radically shifting?

**Zinja** · 07 Apr 09,, 11:26

Oh well, we did see this was coming didn't we?

**Jimmy** · 07 Apr 09,, 15:04

Originally Posted by omon

planes that us has now are more than enough

Sadly, this is no longer true. Its not 1990 anymore, and the rest of the world has not been idle.

every conflict that had usaf, or other us military branches involved, look more like a slaughter than a fight, there was no real resistance since nam.

Exactly, there was no real resistance.

and future wars, with whom?? any country in the world has planes inferior to today's us planes,(and pretty much the rest of the hardware), even newest su, may be a good plane but pilot training is the best in usa, plus planes alone don,t win wars, joint effort of all resources and tactics do.[/QUOTE]

Yes, its a combination of factors...so why on Earth would you want to completely ignore one of the factors? There's a reason the F-22 whoops the F-15C's ass 99% of the time (actually, more than this, but that's not important)...its because the F-22 IS that much better, and that's what we need. Instead we'll keep fighting wars with aircraft designed during Vietnam and built shortly thereafter. We'll keep fighting with the same airplanes my dad worked on BEFORE I WAS BORN. We'll spend billions of dollars to try to keep them relevant for 5 years at a time, and we'll completely disregard common sense that tells us when airframes are fatigued to the point that they literally fold up in-flight that we should continue to throw money at them and keep them around instead of making an investment for the next 30 years and buy the replacement that is leaps and bounds better.

**zraver** · 07 Apr 09,, 15:10

Originally Posted by Kommunist

Its not as if the tech will rot away or anything.

Actually it does, when production stops you begin to lose the skill set developed to build the item in the foirst place.

The Raptor in its current state is 20+ yeards ahead of its nearest competition (excluding F-35). If need arises for F-22, production can be restarted, provided new threats to US Air supremacy arise. However, I dont see that happening in the near future. I'm sure if China comes up with a very good J-XX, or Russia/India with a very good PAK-FA, F-22 production can resume.

Not if the skill set is lost.

**jlvfr** · 07 Apr 09,, 15:12

Originally Posted by Jimmy

airframes are fatigued to the point that they literally fold up in-flight

This is really the USAF's main problem right now. Most of it's fleet is indeed old enough to pass from father to son. And not just old, but overused... pretty soon many will not be able to fly, period.

**jlvfr** · 07 Apr 09,, 15:41

Originally Posted by zraver

Actually it does, when production stops you begin to lose the skill set developed to build the item in the foirst place.

Workers find other jobs (hopefully...), part suppliers stop making parts of the type/quantity necessary, machine tools go into storage, the entire organizational support is dismantled...

Not to mention this: assume production is restarted in 5 years. When it stopped, the production line was rigged for (say) F-22A, not the "F-22A Upgrade 2++ whatever" that will be in service by then. So the entire production line will have to be redesigned and redone...

It's an expensive pain restarting any kind of production.

**Dreadnought** · 07 Apr 09,, 15:42

Only a numbers reduction not a cancellation of the program.

**jlvfr** · 07 Apr 09,, 16:02

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Only a numbers reduction not a cancellation of the program.

True... but let's face: with a comitement of only 4 more, and no orders forthcoming in the near future, how long is Boeing going to be able to keep the line open?