J-10 thread

[Officer of Engineers]

AS regards Korea/Taiwan Japan issues. I'm sure saner heads will rule, well before it gets to the brink or uncle Sam will tell both sides to pull their heads in.

The reason why China wants US presence in a united Korea is precisely to prevent a war between Korea and Japan.

Does Taiwan saying no to Japanese help in the advent of PRC aggression, prevent U.S.forces using Japan as a base for operations then?

It prevents the US from using Japanese warships.

Anyway a similar rationale as to why Japan won't have a go at Russia, to retrieve seized territory, could also apply with its relations to Korea and Taiwan.

For one thing, Japan can't win. For another, there is a blood fued between Japan and everybody else in Asia.

The American Civil war as an example of two democratic countries at war is a moot point.

No, it's not. It shot down your point.

Britain was not a representative democracy in 1812. It didnt start to go down this path until the 1830's

Then, neither is the US if going by your criteria.

It would be a stretch to suggest the axis powers or Tsarist Russia, were true democracies at the advent of ww1 Using Germany as an example as it was themain antogonist, although there were elections for certain segments of society its political direction was managed by the King. After the parliament declared war it dissolved itself and gave full responsibility to the king and military.

It shot down your arguement that democracies never gone to war.

A for your last suggestions, how would they stack up as democracies if compared with USA, or GB

So, now, you're qualifying what is a democracy and what is not. Either the people have a vote or they have not.

Just another thing I was wondering, whats your views on Noam Chomsky’s writings

Not much.

[outofshdw]

Fanboy nonsense.

Believe what you want. I'm only quoting from Jane's Defence Weekly.

The core of the original CFM56 was derived directly from GE's F101 engine, which powers the B-1 bomber. The F101 was also used later as the basis for GE's F110 fighter engine.

Hmmm. I wonder why the Chinese would choose to work from a CFM core . . . .

[outofshdw]

Please excuse my ignorance, do you mean to say they are already flying the J-11Bs?

Yes, the J-11B is already flying. How successful it has, or will be is open to interpretation. So far the production ramp-up appears to be rather leisurely. Given time (and a strong economy), and that too could change.

[Skywatcher]

Yes, the J-11B is already flying. How successful it has, or will be is open to interpretation. So far the production ramp-up appears to be rather leisurely. Given time (and a strong economy), and that too could change.

The PLAAF might have a lot of money, but they still have to prioritize their budget. Given the large number of Flankers that they already have, in addition to spending a LOT of money on the J-10s, their procurement budget doesn't look too impressive anymore.

Edit: Yeah, it's powered by the WS-10A. All the Chinese media sources are saying so, and I can't really find enough evidence to suggest that they're lying. Will try to dig up quotes.

[KenMac]

I thought the Chinese just ordered another big batch of Russian engines - AL-31FN I think.
That's the one they were using on the J-10 from what I recall, although I suppose they could of ordered them for more J-11's...

[outofshdw]

I thought the Chinese just ordered another big batch of Russian engines - AL-31FN I think.
That's the one they were using on the J-10 from what I recall, although I suppose they could of ordered them for more J-11's...

The AL-31FN is not interchangible with the AL-31F that powers the Su-27/Su-30/J-11A. The externals are arranged differently.

China continues to equip its J-10s with Russian engines. Keep in mind that both Chengdu (which produces the J-10) and Shenyang (which produces the J-11) have their own aircraft engine divisions. The WS10A was developed at Shenyang, and equips Shenyang's J-11B. Although no one will say so, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a certain rivalry between the two houses, and if the engineers at Chengdu aren't suspicious of products produced by Shenyang. In any event, Chengdu continues to use the Russian engine.

[mean_bird]

The AL-31FN is not interchangible with the AL-31F that powers the Su-27/Su-30/J-11A. The externals are arranged differently.

China continues to equip its J-10s with Russian engines. Keep in mind that both Chengdu (which produces the J-10) and Shenyang (which produces the J-11) have their own aircraft engine divisions. The WS10A was developed at Shenyang, and equips Shenyang's J-11B. Although no one will say so, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a certain rivalry between the two houses, and if the engineers at Chengdu aren't suspicious of products produced by Shenyang. In any event, Chengdu continues to use the Russian engine.

Cool, I never knew that. Can you please give some link,etc as proof?
All this time I was under the impression that they (the J-11Bs) were powered by Russian Engines.

Two short questions
- What is Chengdu's future engine named that would power the J-10?
- How is the progress of the WS-13 coming along?

[highsea]

Believe what you want. I'm only quoting from Jane's Defence Weekly.

And Janes was only reporting "some sources say..." And of course, Janes is never wrong...

The core of the original CFM56 was derived directly from GE's F101 engine, which powers the B-1 bomber. The F101 was also used later as the basis for GE's F110 fighter engine.

Yep. And I have posted on this topic at length. If you want to see a GE engineer squirt coffee out of his nose, tell him the WS-10 is based on CFM56.

Hmmm. I wonder why the Chinese would choose to work from a CFM core . . . .

Finally! An intelligent question.

1. GEF110
2. AL-31FN
3. WS-10A

[Skywatcher]

I still can't figure out how the WS-10 is based on the Al-31, considering that design started in 1987.

Edit: Did some counting. I believe both the WS-10A and F-110 have 17 blades, while the AL-31FN has 22.

[Belisarius]

I still can't figure out how the WS-10 is based on the Al-31, considering that design started in 1987.

Edit: Did some counting. I believe both the WS-10A and F-110 have 17 blades, while the AL-31FN has 22.

it is 3 years after the Su-27 first introduced...
Who knows, maybe the WS-10 was first based on the F-101, u know, when the US and Chinese ties weren't entirely super bad, then after the whole 1989 event, knowing that F-101 tech will never be traded, and switched to AL-31 instead.

Just my guess, I am no expert.

[Officer of Engineers]

Instead of Highsea repeating his arguements, here is the thread that explains all of his reasoning.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...431#post182431

[outofshdw]

1. GEF110
2. AL-31FN
3. WS-10A

What are you trying to imply by the photographs? No one is claiming that the WS-10A borrowed its fan or nozzle from a Western design. It had to fit in the same engine bay as an AL-31F. It is reported to have been based on the core of the CFM56, not the low spool or nozzel of an F110.

As I said, you can believe what you want. Most of the information that Jane's reports on Chinese defense developments tends to come from Russian sources - who have visited the Chinese manufacturing facilities and are familiar with what the Chinese can and cannot do.

Reverse-engineering component geometry should not have been that difficult for the Chinese to master. Reverse engineering the manufacturing technology that goes with it is another matter. It doesn't hurt my head to believe that the Chinese could reproduce fit-perfect replicas of Western engine hardware. Getting them to last longer than the equivalent parts in a WP-7A (China's R-11 knock-off) - that's a different matter.

I'll add this: the Russians were pretty piqued last year, when China test flew their first, all-Chinese J-11B. They were reportedly convinced that China has made the necessary "breakthrough in engine manufacturing technology" that would allow the WS-10A to reach production:
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080221/99765686.html

Yet according to other sources, the WS-10A has been a disappointment to the PLAAF, and subsequent, production copies of the J-11B have reverted to Russian-supplied engines:
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...99&c=ASI&s=AIR

I would submit that the real value of the WS-10A for China is the leverage that it provides over China's Russian suppliers. The new Chinese engine may or may not have solved the durability and reliability problems that dogged its predecessors. Its mere existence, however, would provide China with bargaining power that they did not have before.

[ANZAC]

Anzac
can you please give me the details of the engine, if known? The Pakistanis as of now are not happy with the chinese engine/ radar for their j-17 which is a much lower level than j-10.

Hi ravi...........

Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner, but it seems there's been plenty of info come up, hope it's what you want.

[Officer of Engineers]

It had to fit in the same engine bay as an AL-31F. It is reported to have been based on the core of the CFM56, not the low spool or nozzel of an F110.

Would you mind giving me the issue of JDW which makes this claim, at least within the year? I have access at work to search for that but it helps to narrow down the search parameters.

[xinhui]

Date Posted: 01-Dec-2008

Jane's Aero-Engines
LM WS10A Tai Hang



The long and convoluted history of the WS10 -- named Tai Hang after a Chinese mountain -- was at least superficially revealed in November 2005, in a feature article in the officially published Chinese Aviation. This enabled a more definitive history to be written by a Chinese correspondent of Jane's, Jonathon Weng, and what follows is based on his work. Weng confirmed that the WS10 was originally derived from the WS6 (see separate entry). This engine was abandoned at the start of the 1980s, and 606 Design Institute (the previously unknown AVIC I designation of the Shenyang Engine Design and Research Institute) began work on a derived design, called in English the High-Performance Propulsion System Preliminary Design (HPPSPD). From the outset, this incorporated features of the CFM56 civil turbofan, newly arrived in China, which itself was designed around the HP compressor of the General Electric F101 (engine of the B-1B bomber). Having the crucial HP spool as a basis, the rest of the engine posed challenges which the 606 Institute felt it could meet.

......



In the final years of the 20th Century the WS10 development lagged seriously, though Liming Engine Manufacturing Corporation (LM) was brought in as the intended manufacturer of production engines. The slow progress was due mainly to economic factors, but also to failure in 1997 of a fourth-stage HP compressor blade. Despite funding difficulties the few remaining engineers at 606 Institute did manage to modify both the engine and the imported Su-27SK so that the Chinese engine could be installed. Unexpectedly, the bombing by the USAF of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade spurred the Chinese to speed up weapon programmes, and in June 2003 the PLA Daily proclaimed "Our new turbofan engine is being tested on Chinese new fighter [the J-11B]...the fighter is equipped with two different engines, one made by China, the other foreign..."

.......