J-10 thread

[Optimus]

Sino- defence whats that like, i did visit some other chinese site as a guest ages ago, found too much chinese patriotism for my liking- basically couldnt connect.

As I suggested the sub captain surfaced for one upmanship.. He may well have got a strip torn off him back at base.

I have heard both sides opinion on how that satellite was shot down. I have read so called expert opinion on both sides of the spectrum into its genuiness, but considering the americans shot one down last year, ill lean towards it being genuine.Unless you can provide substantiated data that US forces traced the old satellite being manoeuvred.

As for the stealth I believe the Serbs claim they shot it down, while the Americans claim it was system failure which led to it coming down, or was it a bit of both?. Don't tell me the pilot got lost and ran out of gas

AS for that equipment the US was supposed to be selling to the Taiwanese, it had been held up for years, but I believe theyre are getting a watered down deal. I didnt say it was the latest gear, merely fairly up to date.

[Triple C]

Dude...

Have you ever gone for a walk alone, unarmed in a deep dark forest, completelly naked, found a large sleeping hungry bear... and then kicked it in the nuts???

Now you have

Enjoy

He, he, he.

Optimus, that's an awful dangerous thing you just did there.

[gunnut]

Dude...

Have you ever gone for a walk alone, unarmed in a deep dark forest, completelly naked, found a large sleeping hungry bear... and then kicked it in the nuts???

Now you have

Enjoy

That's an interesting analogy...)

[Optimus]

So Im going to get a written form of a verbal tongue lashing chewed up and spat out with a banning hunh? Oh well shit happens

[Triple C]

Well, yeah. I would be less than humored if someone challenge my credentials in my chosen profession, too.

Anyhow, to respond to your earlier comment, I have something OoE wrote on Chinese ambitions in neutralizing western C3 functions with low-tech and unconventional means:

The most recent heralded PLA publication Unrestricted Warfare by Senior Colonel (SrCol) Qiao Liang and SrCol Wang Xiangsui, both Propaganda Officers of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), suggests that China has "cheap" answers against American military dominance in technology and technique. Unrestricted Warfare advocates the usage of computer viruses to disrupt American Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence (C4I) systems. To disrupt American airpower, the two SrCols suggest that People's Brigades can close down airbases by posing a direct ground threat.

However, the two SrCols left the details to the readers' imagination. Serious military practitioners pressed for details that were not forth coming. Needless to say, it is not as easy it sounds. Western C4I was expected to collapse not because of computer hacking but by Soviet tank columns overrunning the Command Posts. As a result, both technology and technique have been developed for such a scenario. Any computer virus the PLA could develop will not reduce this capability - that is if they can infect Western C4I in the first place, a dubious proposition to say the very least.

The People's Brigade idea has not been even taken seriously within the PLA itself. This time, however, the two SrCols fall for China's historical propaganda, that the People's War can overcome superior enemy technology and technique. However, People's War has never been meant to work in hostile territory and it never will.

That and the fact that every field officer who has been in a brigade level exercise laughs himself silly at the suggestion of so easily dropping and maintaining two clandestine brigades into a hostile city so far from friendly lines.

[Officer of Engineers]

By what criteria do you call yourself a serious China watcher.

30+ years.

I only admit to a passing interest to things military however most of my reading are mainline Western Publications, very little Peoples Daily.
The news about the Chinese knocking down one of their birds with a land based rocket was printed in the Washington Post and New York times after acknowledgement by the Pentagon in 2007, as well as a host of other well respected world Newspapers and Magazines. eg the Economist, Der Speigel, If you believe it didnt happen then try to google it. The article I read said it was the Chinese third attempt and it was actually tracked by the Americans.. THe Russians and Americans did it several decades earlier by different means, The former by manoeuvring one explosive vechile close to another, and the Americans by firing a missile/rocket from one of their planes.What made you think it was a 2AF missile anyway.

Then, it is the same event that Gunnut was talking about when the Chinese moved an old weather bird into the proper place for a kill ... at Low Earth Orbit.

Thats a big assumption on your part about the Chinese Captain surfacing because he was scared of being detected. It was more of a case of surfacing to say Gotcha. Seeing neither of us are privy to what really happened we will have to agree to disagree.

Not mine. Capt (N) Kennedy's http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2006...inese-sub.html

I know the course of the Kitty Hawk was well published and the Chinese could easily have a pack of Soongs spaced out and waiting.
I only said it to bait Zraver, as I think some of his points are ridiculous.

What makes you think that the Chinese would enjoy this advantage under wartime conditions?

While not dismissing General Caos statement, as a China watcher you should be well aware the Chinese place a great deal of importence on the strategy of Sun Tze. To put his beliefs in short, he believes in complete deception, therefore one does not really know what the Chinese are capable off.

Oh for Pete sakes, do some research on who's the man and why he said the things he said.

Not to long ago I would have agreed with you on the military outcome fom a hot situation, but the pendulum is all so slowly swinging in Chinas favour.

The PLA does not agree with you.

So whats going to happen now is that the KMT and China are gonna kiss and make up, after the US has sold Taiwan a bunch of fairly up to date weaponry.

I'll belive that when I see it.

Then the Chicoms will be given a good peek)

Like Pakistan? The damage is already done.

[Optimus]

In that case my apologies if I have offended you, because your experience leaves you in a very good circumstances to judge the events.
I remember glancing at the statement as I remember glancing at on the online news.

What really has me beat is why most people continue to think that there is the continued possibility of a hot situation in east Asia, or China is going to be a military aggressor. I think if you treat it like one it will become one.. Im going to go down the tired old path by suggesting that Taiwan is part of China, if from nothing more than the fact the allies gave it to the government of China during the WW2 Cairo Agreements /43/44? along with all other historical Chinese territory taken by the Japanese. the So we should now butt out. I for one am not willing for my children/ grandchildren to be conned into fighting a war if one breaks out years or decades down the track.All this fear about China casting covetous eyes on other territory other than what is historically theirs is bunkum. The hot wars China has had with its neighbour India are border disputes, and India is not exactly blameless, and Vietnam which I think was more out of pique because of Vietnam' s invasion of Cambodia and the subsequent overthrow of the Khymer Rouge

[Officer of Engineers]

In that case my apologies if I have offended you, because your experience leaves you in a very good circumstances to judge the events.

No, you have not offended me. It's that a little more reading would have shown you a lot more than what's on the surface.

I remember glancing at the statement as I remember glancing at on the online news.

I don't usually quote anything unless I have two sources to back it up.

What really has me beat is why most people continue to think that there is the continued possibility of a hot situation in east Asia,

North Korea versus South Korea. South Korea against Japan. Taiwan against Japan. PRC against Japan. PRC versus North Korea. It's not just Taiwan against mainland China.

or China is going to be a military aggressor.

The CCP has bet its future as the legitimate rulers of China on the unification with Taiwan.

I think if you treat it like one it will become one.. Im going to go down the tired old path by suggesting that Taiwan is part of China, if from nothing more than the fact the allies gave it to the government of China during the WW2 Cairo Agreements /43/44? along with all other historical Chinese territory taken by the Japanese. the So we should now butt out.

Then the 1st step is to repeal the Taiwan Relations Act.

I for one am not willing for my children/ grandchildren to be conned into fighting a war if one breaks out years or decades down the track.

Your country's honour is worth killing and dying for.

All this fear about China casting covetous eyes on other territory other than what is historically theirs is bunkum. The hot wars China has had with its neighbour India are border disputes, and India is not exactly blameless, and Vietnam which I think was more out of pique because of Vietnam' s invasion of Cambodia and the subsequent overthrow of the Khymer Rouge

You also forgot the Sino-Soviet clashes that came dangerously close to nuclear war and that one, there is no one to blame but the Chinese.

[Dreadnought]

OOE, Sir
For the life of me I cannot see why China would be jumpin for joy over surfacing near the KittyHawk and her group. The Kitty was the oldest, loudest by machinery signature/prop signature CV we have on the books not to mention fossil fueled and running her standard route. Basically, an idiot could have found her and it certainly would not take rocket science to figure her heading if holding to her prior sorties which as you mentioned were well voiced in advance. The question which your commentor seems to be missing is the "why" sail her down a known course making all that noise. I bet he and his information network still dont know the answer to that one yet? Deception does not only work for the Chinese I assure you.

[gunnut]

Sino- defence whats that like, i did visit some other chinese site as a guest ages ago, found too much chinese patriotism for my liking- basically couldnt connect.

Sino-defense is a fanboi site. China-defense is much more in-depth in analysis and is run by professional watchers. The way to tell the difference is what these people are concerned with. Casual observers see numbers like max range, max speed, max load. Professionals are concerned with how things are used and how they are supplied. And that's just on the surface.

As I suggested the sub captain surfaced for one upmanship.. He may well have got a strip torn off him back at base.

Again, if he had gained the tactical advantage, why would he give that away by letting the Americans know?

I have heard both sides opinion on how that satellite was shot down. I have read so called expert opinion on both sides of the spectrum into its genuiness, but considering the americans shot one down last year, ill lean towards it being genuine.Unless you can provide substantiated data that US forces traced the old satellite being manoeuvred.

Chinese had control of the old satellite. It was moved into a lower orbit, a collision course with a newly launched kill vehicle.

The one we shot down recently was a malfunctioned satellite. It never worked according to the CIA/DOD. We launched a missile from a cruiser and nailed it in the fuel tank. The missile had no explosives.

As for the stealth I believe the Serbs claim they shot it down, while the Americans claim it was system failure which led to it coming down, or was it a bit of both?. Don't tell me the pilot got lost and ran out of gas

To make a long story short, the "system failure" was not the system on F-117, but the planning system on the ground. The guy planning the attack routed the F-117 through the same area, on the same approach vector, at the same time of the night, several nights in a row.

A very smart Serb commander realized the pattern and placed his batteries in the path of the F-117. He had observers along the route and had early warning on the approach. Once you know when and where to look, it's much easier to find the stealth. Stealth does not mean invisible. It means low observability. He then spammed a bunch of missiles, turned on his radars for a very short time, just enough to light up the sky, and bagged himself a stealth.

AS for that equipment the US was supposed to be selling to the Taiwanese, it had been held up for years, but I believe theyre are getting a watered down deal. I didnt say it was the latest gear, merely fairly up to date.

They're up to date but not that critical. The last, large scale, completed deal was the transfer of 4 Kidd class destroyers along with 200+ Standard missiles. These ships are serviceable, nothing like our Aegis ships, but much better than anything Taiwan had at that time.

[Skywatcher]

Sinodefense is a lot more well behaved these days. Bit on the boring side, I must admit.

[Optimus]

RE The the Pendulum swinging in favour of the PRC over Taiwan.
What prompted me to make that remark was the comment made by the Commander of the Pacific Fleet (I cant remember his name offhand) Fallon?/or his successor, where he inferred that the capability of the U.S. air wing had fallen behind that of the Chinese air wing, that it faced.( I read it on the BBC sometime between 1-18months ago) However I do realise that any self respecting commander will use every trick in the book to procure the best equipment for his men, even to the point of ruffling a few political feathers.

The blogsite containing comments over the sub incident.Some of the more serious ones gave food for thought.

[Jimmy]

When the German bombers came over the English ducked.When the English went over the Germans ducked, when the Americans went over everybody ducked.re Afghanistan/ Iraq This is still the case evidently, with all the collateral damage and killing of innocents, and own troops or allies.
There is no doubt the Americans are experienced because they have been at it long enough, But its easy to look good against easy beats. The Balkans and Kosovo showed up some shortcomings, even one of the vaunted Stealths went down.

Now you've proven what everyone here already was guessing...you're a moron and you have little or no idea what you're talking about.

Edit: Well, the topic was covered pretty well, and I have to say my eyes opened quite a bit when the Col got called out, haha.

[zraver]

You are too quick in knocking the quality of the oppositions military hardware.

Nope I've seen the pictures.



[quote]In the Korean war while the Migs flown by the Chinese and N.Koreans were easy to handle, (due to lack of experience) the Migs flown by the Russian volunteers proved to be more than a handful.[quote]

That claim is sure repeated a lot. However if you stack Soviet claims against admitted USAF losses and USAF claims against admitted Soviet losses the US comes out on top.

The Chinese don’t have to match you in all areas of military hardware, the usual pentagon sources who don’t want to be named have suggested the Chinese beginning to demonstrate a worrying ability to negate some of the advantages the US has. For instance the ability to take out the navigation and command and control satellites is improving by leaps and bounds, some of which has already been demonstrated.

when was it demonstrated? They hit a LEO sat not a comm sat which is tens of thousands of Kilometers up, not mere hundreds.

The Fancy F22s, UCAVs etc etc would be as useless as the fastest sports car, with no wheels in a drag race.

hyperbole, since China can't get high enough or often enough to get at the sats. Even if they could, the F-22 is still lethal. The UAV's are still flying and the carriers and bombers are still bringing the heat.

Or that specially converted ballistic missile designed to take out aircraft carriers, to which the American navy have acknowledged they have no defence against.

Red Scare, The SM-3 is a viable ABM system if China can actually get a BM with the cross range maneuverability and proper targeting gear to make it a real weapon.

The Russian Sunburst currently in service is designed to do a similar job.

Unless fired enmass the sunburn and klub are much ado about nothing. Do you have any idea about just how layered a carrier groups defenses are?

In short all they have to do is impress upon the US that they are capable of inflicting unacceptable losses upon them.
WE can regard American claim to mission success with some degree of scepticism.

Not really, China is puffing up and boasting but the threat lacks teeth. Lets talk about real capability. China has one of the longest coast lines in the world. US subs can fire from almost anywhere and hit China where it hurts. The USN can stand off and put China under a blockade that will crush its economy. The B-2 can fly to anywhere in China, destroy it and fly out etc.

In the Balkans, observers counting the tanks and other tracked vehicles when the Serbs military pulled out from Kosovo revealed the claims on the amount of destroyed tracked vehicles by American pilots, grossly exaggerated.

destroyed tanks dont win wars. Take a count of the number of bridges across the Danude left standing. Then ask yourself why bridges are important and you'll begin to understand how strategic airpower works.

I was reading an article on the amount of ordnances used by American troops in Vietnam. It appears that the troops expended an avg. of 50,000 rounds of M16 rifle ammunition per VC kill. Seems like American troops would have trouble hitting a barn door at twenty paces. I sure hope they’ve improved, otherwise the Chinese can dispense with the cost of providing their troops with body armour.

Different era, different army.

A few officers and crew must have stained their pants when the Chinese sub surfaced undetected by the Kitty Hawk, and theres no need to come up with the lame excuse the Americans had their detection gear switched off. In a hot situation you can scratch one carrier. (easy peasy)

Red Scare nothing more, its an old US defense establishment tactic to get more money.

As for not counter sinking the rivets in the skin of the aircraft, any half brained engineer could tell you that it wasn’t necessary. In fact it could possibly impair the strength of the covering, at the point of riveting.

hahahaha

F-16 see how flush it is



Side of an F-14 see how flush and counter sunk, no gaping gaps either.

[Officer of Engineers]

destroyed tanks dont win wars. Take a count of the number of bridges across the Danude left standing. Then ask yourself why bridges are important and you'll begin to understand how strategic airpower works.

Apparently, enough for the 3JA to leave and for NATO to enter all within 30 days.