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Thread: A Few Quick Questions Regarding TWR and Engines...

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    Regular classical1939's Avatar
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    A Few Quick Questions Regarding TWR and Engines...

    i am new to this board and if my questions are a bit off please dont mind.
    i am slightly confused about the TWR and engine issues thrown up by the IAF around the LCA....

    how is it that the gripen(5700Kg empty) weighs more than the LCA (5500Kg empty) but does fine with a 80KN volvo engine/83Kn GE-F-404 engine whereas the LCA has been slammed inpite of using a 85 Kn engine...??

    the JF 17 is much heavier (6600kg empty) yet uses only an 81Kn engine??

    also another query.....
    does a aircaft really require afterburners to go supersonic....??
    wat i mean is that aircraft like sepecat jaguar manage to acheive pretty high supersonic speeds without afterburners using only turbofans??
    so y do modern supercruising aircraft like EF 2000 struggle to maintain supersonic speeds without afterburner...??

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    The Adour was a turbofan engine developed primarily to power the Anglo-French SEPECAT Jaguars Fighter-bombers, achieving its first successful test run in 1968. It comes with or without the installation of an afterburner (reheat).


    Reheated

    Adour Mk 101
    Adour Mk 102 - Redesigned reheat system used to power French Jaguar As.
    Adour Mk 104
    Adour Mk 106 - Replacement for the Jaguar's Mk104 engine (developed from the Adour 871) with a reheat section. The RAF refitted its fleet with this engine as part of the GR3 upgrade. In May 2007, following the retirement of the last 16 Jaguars from No. 6 Squadron RAF, based at RAF Coningsby, the Adour 106 has been phased out of RAF service.
    Adour Mk 804
    Adour Mk 811
    Dry

    Adour Mk 151
    Adour Mk 151A - Used by the Red Arrows, includes modified jetpipe for smoke generation.
    Adour Mk 161
    Adour Mk 861
    Adour Mk 871
    Adour Mk 951 - Designed for the latest versions of the BAE Hawk, with improved performance on the 871, with up to twice the service life. The Adour 951 is a more fundamental redesign than the Adour Mk106, featuring an all-new fan and combustor and revised HP and LP turbines.

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    Regular classical1939's Avatar
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    i believe the jaguar uses turbofans without after burners.........

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    i admire your faith

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel View Post
    i admire your faith
    i told you i was new.. amyway wat about the first question??

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    Quote Originally Posted by classical1939 View Post
    i told you i was new.. anyway what about the first question??
    the answer is no.

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    Contributor Kommunist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel View Post
    the answer is no.
    From Wikipedia,
    JAS 39 - Gripen (Not Gripen-NG)
    General characteristics
    • Crew: 1 (2 for JAS 39B/D)
    • Length: 14.1 m (46 ft 3 in)
    • Wingspan: 8.4 m (27 ft 7 in)
    • Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
    • Wing area: 30.0 m² (323 ft²)
    • Empty weight: 5,700 kg (14,600 lb)
    • Loaded weight: 8,500 kg (18,700 lb)
    • Max takeoff weight: 14,000 kg (31,000 lb)
    • Powerplant: 1× Volvo Aero RM12 afterburning turbofan
    o Dry thrust: 54 kN (12,100 lbf)
    o Thrust with afterburner: 80.5 kN (18,100 lbf)
    • Wheel track: 2.4 m (7 ft 10 in)
    • Length (two-seater): 14.8 m (48 ft 5 in)
    Performance
    • Maximum speed: Mach 2 (2,130 km/h, 1,320 mph)
    • Combat radius: 800 km (500 mi, 432 nmi)
    • Ferry range: 3,200 km (2,000 mi) with drop tanks
    • Service ceiling 15,240 m (50,000 ft)
    • Wing loading: 336 kg/m² (68.8 lb/ft²)
    • Thrust/weight: 0.97


    JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 Fierce Dragon
    General characteristics
    • Crew: 1 (2 for proposed twin-seater)
    • Length: 14.0 m (49 ft)
    • Wingspan: 9.45 m (31 ft)
    • Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
    • Wing area: 24.4 m² (263 ft²)
    • Empty weight: 6,450 kg (14,200 lb)
    • Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles (20,062 lb)
    • Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg (28,000 lb)
    • Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
    o Dry thrust: 49.4 kN (11,106 lbf)
    o Thrust with afterburner: 81.4 kN (18,299 lbf)
    • G-limit: +8.5 g
    • Fuel Capacity: 2300kg (5,130 lb)
    Performance
    • Maximum speed: Mach 1.8
    • Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi)
    • Ferry range: 3,000km (1,864 mi)
    • Service ceiling 16,700 m (54,790 ft)
    • Thrust/weight: 0.95


    HAL Tejas/LCA
    General characteristics
    • Crew: 1
    • Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
    • Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
    • Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
    • Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
    • Empty weight: 5,500 kg (12,100 lb)
    • Loaded weight: 8,500 kg (18,700 lb (in fighter configuration))
    • Max takeoff weight: 14,500 kg (31,967lb)
    • Powerplant: 1× General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
    o Dry thrust: 54.9 kN (12,250 lbs)
    o Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,000 lbs)
    • Internal fuel capacity: 3000 liters
    • External fuel capacity: 5×800 liter tanks or 3×1,200 liter tanks, totaling 4,000/3,600 liters
    Performance
    • Maximum speed: Mach 1.8+ (1,920+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
    • Range: 2000 km (1,242 mi(without refueling))
    • Service ceiling 15,950+ m (50,000 ft(Engine re-igniter safely capable))
    • Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
    • Thrust/weight: 1.02
    • g limits : +9 g / -3.5 g
    To which question are you responsing with this "no"?
    If not, which part of the question is not clear to you? He was talking about the thrust/weight ratios of the three aircraft in question and why the thrust on the LCA is deemed insufficient.

    PS - I would have answered the question myself if I had known the answer. From what I see, it puzzles me too.
    Last edited by Kommunist; 28 Jan 09, at 13:34.
    Everyone has opinions, only some count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by classical1939 View Post
    does a aircaft really require afterburners to go supersonic....??
    this one

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    The thrust on the LCA is sufficient. ( Not for supercruise but compared to gripen and fc-1)
    Last edited by gabriel; 28 Jan 09, at 13:46.

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    Contributor Kommunist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabriel View Post
    this one
    I think the primary question and the purpose of this was that why was the LCA engine considered underpowered, while other similar aircraft are underpowered in comparison to it.


    Well, Gabriel, you beat me to it..... posted while I was writing!!
    Everyone has opinions, only some count.

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    I would not say underpowered.
    The gripen has canards that help control the flow of the air at high angle of attack ( tight turns) so it needs less thrust to compensate the loss in lift.
    The fc-1 ( which i`m not familiar with) probably address the problem in the same way the f-16 does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by classical1939 View Post
    i am new to this board and if my questions are a bit off please dont mind.

    I am slightly confused about the TWR and engine issues thrown up by the IAF around the LCA....

    how is it that the gripen(5700Kg empty) weighs more than the LCA (5500Kg empty) but does fine with a 80KN volvo engine/83Kn GE-F-404 engine whereas the LCA has been slammed inpite of using a 85 Kn engine...??

    the JF 17 is much heavier (6600kg empty) yet uses only an 81Kn engine??
    Because the IAF is demanding a plane with 5500-6500kg empty weight and ~90-100kn(with AB) engine?

    Hopefully the get it with the next version, and hopefully it will turn out to be a little MFer with a lot of energy in all conditions.

    I think the air inlets will have a role in this too.
    Last edited by kuku; 28 Jan 09, at 14:07.
    cheers

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    Isn't TWR calculated by dividing the total thrust given by a plane's engine at ground level divided by the total weight of the plane at the ground level?
    Last edited by Dark Sorrow; 28 Jan 09, at 14:21.
    Here comes the silent killer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sorrow View Post
    Isn't TWR calculated by dividing the total thrust divided by the total weight?
    it looks cooler this way...

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    Quote Originally Posted by classical1939 View Post
    i am new to this board and if my questions are a bit off please dont mind.
    i am slightly confused about the TWR and engine issues thrown up by the IAF around the LCA....

    how is it that the gripen(5700Kg empty) weighs more than the LCA (5500Kg empty) but does fine with a 80KN volvo engine/83Kn GE-F-404 engine whereas the LCA has been slammed inpite of using a 85 Kn engine...??

    the JF 17 is much heavier (6600kg empty) yet uses only an 81Kn engine??
    You listed empty weight. Some people want to hang all sorts of stuff on their jets and some resist the temptation and hang only the essentials.

    Gripen is a marvelous little fighter. It does everything the Swedes want it to do, and no more. It's not designed as a bomber. And the Swedes don't use it as such.

    I suspect some people want the LCA to perform strike roles like the F-15E. In that case, the LCA is underpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by classical1939 View Post
    also another query.....
    does a aircaft really require afterburners to go supersonic....??
    wat i mean is that aircraft like sepecat jaguar manage to acheive pretty high supersonic speeds without afterburners using only turbofans??
    so y do modern supercruising aircraft like EF 2000 struggle to maintain supersonic speeds without afterburner...??
    Not at all. Guess what fighter can supercruise besides the Raptor? The Gripen! It can go supersonic with external A2A stores. Most amazing of all, the TWR is below 1! Some suspect the designers were meticulous on the aerodynamics of the plane and came up with a masterpiece. There is no other explanation.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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