Boba

What is the best russian airborn radar ?? Does Russia work on AESA radar compare the APG 77

ajaybhutani

Russians dont have AESA Tech.
They are stil using PESA.
Best ones are N011M Bars( in MKI/SU37.) and SBI-16 Zaslon ( mig 31M)

Boba

Does PAK FA T 50 use PESA radar ?? I read that Russians having started work on AESA radar systems, in future preferably an AESA variant should equip our PAK FA T 50

ajaybhutani

the work is ont for AESA . but its difficult to say wether it will be completed in time. Lets hope for the best.

Dima

yes, i've also heard that Russia is developing an AESA radar

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ajaybhutani

ya but theres no info on whats the status.

highsea

Since Russia lags far behind in this technology, they are dependent on COTS x-band GaAs MMICs for any Russian design. These do not exist yet, and export controls are very tight. The US is the only country that manufactures these, and every one is accounted for, even the scrap. Even if Russia could secure enough MMICs, they still have to adapt them to a design, test, program, etc. At roughly 1500 elements per radar (for a fighter), they can't produce AESA until they secure a reliable supply. And they are very expensive, which is another reason why Russia uses TWT's and ferrite phase shifters in their radars. So somebody better come along with a few billion dollars if Russia wants to develop these themselves.

The European AMSAR is still in early stages (probably about 7 years out), and Israel's ELTA has published some specs on GaAS MMIC's, but there is no production, so they are at least ten years out. So right now, this is a US only technology, and will stay that way for several more years, with Europe and Israel as the next players to be able to develop AESA radars for fighters.

The US was using L-band AESA for over 20 years before we were able to develop it far enough to design an x-band AESA suitable for a fighter AC. If the Europeans, with the combined resources of several countries (and the technological help of the US), have an 11 year development cycle, how long do you think it will take Russia, with the financial difficulties they are facing?

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Boba

Its actually been over a YEAR! Russia calls AESA AFAR. This was run by Interfax ages ago.

Bench Tests of First Aircraft Radar with Active Phased Array Antenna Start in 2004
The Fazotron-NIIR Corporation plans to start bench tests in 2004 of the first aircraft radar with an active phased array antenna (BRLS with AFAR), the general director and general designer of the corporation, Anatoliy Kanashchenkov, reported to Interfax-AVN on Thursday ((8 May 2003)).

As early as the second quarter 2003, the first of several elements for the active phased array antenna should be manufactured,ˇ¨ A. Kanashchenkov said.

According to him, new principles based on solid-state technology are being used in the BRLS with AFAR being developed by the corporation.

As of today, we already have prospective power amplifier and approximately half the solid-state integrated analogue circuits, said A. Kanashchenkov.

He reported that the enterprise is participating in a competition for the creation of the aircraft radar for the future Russian fifth generation fighter.

The document about the conclusion of the competition for the creation of the aircraft radar for the future Russian fighter still has not been signed. But independent of the results of the competition, Fazotron-NIIR will continue work on the development of a future BRLS with AFAR - such work has been underway at the enterprise over the last 7 years, A. Kanashchenkov said.

Answering an Interfax-AVN question, he reported that the future BRLS with AFAR will be more expensive than a BRLS with a passive phased array antenna. At the same time, A. Kanashchenkov noted that the improvement of the technology for manufacturing a BRLS with AFAR over time will allow appreciably reducing expenses and lead to a lowering of the price for the complex.

As early as after the manufacture and tests of the first 5 - 10 BRLS with AFAR the technology of their assembly will be improved and the cost lowered significantly, A. Kanashchenkov said.

highsea

Lol. Over a year...on something that will take 10-15 years to do successfully.

Phazotron hasn't been very successful in their recent models. (Zhuk-M series, etc) NIIP has consistently won out over NIIR, and even had to take over some of the projects in the past.

Apparently NIIP is the more trusted of the two manufacturers.
Like I said, if you have a few billion to spare, then maybe. Russia doesn't have the manufacturing capabilities for large scale MMIC production. It's one thing to build a few elements for lab testing, and another thing entirely to manufacture them by the thousands. Russia will eventually develop AESA, it's inevitable. But they are playing serious catch-up, and have a long way to go. Deal with it.

Dima

highsea, just to clarify, Russia is no longer facing financial difficulties, but, let's not get started on that, by saying x-band, does that mean, that it can operate in any bands, A-L, or, is there anew band that it can operate at, x, if it is a new band, what Gigahertz's is it rated at?

yes, isn't the AESA radar made out of Gallium Arsenide?

highsea

Frequencies vary depending on what the radar will be used for, antenna materials, and MW source. In Gigahertz:

L band 1-2
S band 2-4
C band 4-8
X band 8-12
Ku band 12-18
K band 18-27
Ka band 27-40
V band 40-75
W band 75-110

IIRC, the N011M uses L and X, depending on mode.

Passive elements use ferrite phase shifters and traveling wave tubes (TWTs). The tubes are the MW amplifiers, and the phase shifters steer and focus the beam. The phase shifters cannot be adjusted electronically, so the frequency cannot be varied in operation. Multi-tasking then occurs at a single frequency. Since ferrite phase shifters do not have any signal processing capability, all the of the signal is converted into one single frequency (known as the intermediate frequency), and all the processing occurs at the backend.

Active elements use Microwave Monolithic Integrated Circuits (MMICs) This is the GaAs chip that is the heart of the active array. Unlike passive elements whose phase shift must be mechanically varied, the MMIC varies it electronically. This gives a much greater steering capability, and since they need no external power source (the TWT tubes), they operate at much lower power levels, about 1/100 the level of the passive elements. Also, the initial processing is carried out on the MMIC, so multiple frequencies can be used simultaneously. Combine that with the low power, and you have a signal that is much harder to detect.

Because each element can operate on separate frequencies, active signal cancellation is possible. Jamming is pretty much impossible, because the elements can just switch frequencies, or be operating on a wide spectrum to begin with. With AESA, it is possible to jam an opponent's radar, without affecting the other radars in the flight group. PESA is relatively easy to jam by saturating the TWT with a large amount of signals (such as from a jamming pod). This technique doesn't work with AESA.

There are other advantages to AESA, better sidelobe performance, low power loss, high reliability. The disadvantage is cost. The MMICs are expensive, and each radar uses lots of them. The AN/APG-77 uses 1500 elements per antenna. The JSF's radar will be a little smaller, 1200 elements. Also they have to be cooled. So you have a coolant that runs through the antenna, and the heat has to be disippated- either with a separate radiator, a heat exchanger in the fuel tank, or some other method.

Anon

"There are other advantages to AESA, better sidelobe performance, low power loss, high reliability. "

Add to that very low counter-detectability.

Dima

wow, AESA radars are awesome, they would greatly affect the performance of an aircraft, obviously, with aESA< you think that they would have been able to beat the Su-30K?(also, with the full range of the AIM-120 AMRAAM)

sw55

Well I suppose the Russian Navy might actually get to sea this march as planned, or not... (all thirty deployable ships, maybe...) But tell me, how come if Russia is out of financial difficulty we are still paying to dismantle old Soviet nuclear warheads and secure the weapons grade material in the US, and how come we are funding the dismanteling of over 140 Soviet nuclear submarines which are struggeling to stay afloat at their docks??

Well if this is true Dima, than we can cut off the funding since you seem to have the funding to handle your nuclear material security and environmental issues, and then we can spend even more on countering your 20 year old cold war technology! LMAO!

Dima

wow, actually, if you didn't know, Admiral Kuznetsov is set to go on a long range mission in March or April i think, 30 Russian ships, are you insane, that's laughable,

clearly, you have no knowledge of the Russian Navy(i must admit though i do not either)

but, i do know that America's submarines amount to a total of 116 and their Surface Ships amount to 72, in comparison, Russia's navy consists of 64 submarines and only 23 Surface ships, so where did you get 30 from, really?



have you also noticed that you guys are not paying us at all, haven't you read, these payments are a disaster, they're receving only a fraction of the money required, they promised $20 billion, and Russia has received some $5 billion i believe, with that, and THEIR OWN MONEY, they've had to build the dismantling facilities by themselves, the dismantling of 140 nuclear submarines, where did you get that number from, lol the only country that is helping Russia dismantle their submarines is Japan, and they're only planning to dismantle

http://russiajournal.com/news/cnews-...shtml?nd=46984
a total of only 32 sumarines are to be dismantled, not 140, and 5 are to be dismantled with assistance from Japan, they won't fund the entire thing, there's Russian money in there, on their own, Russia can dismantle 9 submarines fully in one year

fine, cut the spending, it doesn't matter, they started paying Russia anyways because they were afraid of its massive nuclear arsenal, that just means more nukes for Russia LMAO

buddy, don't make me pull out the stick, you want to know the future of America's submarines, well, by 2010, the American Navy will only receive 6 new Submarines, 1 new SSGN and 5 new SSN 774's, but, they will decomission all their SSN 688 Los Angeles, which totals 16 submarines, and an additional 2 SSN 688(VLS) subs, to a total of 18, thus their submarine force will amount to 104 submarines, that will still be more than Russia's though, they are expected to dismantle 5 submarines until 2010, and are expected to induct 2 submarines, 2 Project 955 Borei class submarines, which will reduce the number of Russian submarines to 61 submarines

surface ships, is another deal, America is expected to dismantle none of their surface ships by 2010, and are expected to induct a total of 18 DDG 51 Flight 2A's by 2010, Russia on the other hand is expected to neither dismantle, nor purchase any Russian surface ships, to the best of my knowledge, but this situation is unclear, therefore, the amount of American surface ships will increase to 90 ships, up from 72, and Russia will stay at only 23 Surface Ships

if i'm not mistaken, most AS technology is from the 1980's and late 70's as well, so you shouldn't boast so much buddy

you really don't understand anything about economics, just don't talk to me,lol