MiG 1.42 MFI “RAPTOR KILLER” : THE F-22 SLAYER

**Bill** · 08 May 05,, 16:07

The 'failure' of F-86s vs Mig-15s.....LOL.

**~~Lord Vastu~~** · 20 May 05,, 05:40

Originally Posted by wipeout

"Had a friend, an old classmate of mine who was a young Fulcrum pilot, used to fly in low over the IIT campus in his MiG-29 and do hammerhead stalls in a way of saying "Hi" to some of our school buddies there before finally landing in at Santacruz Airport"

I am sure this is a pack of lies, if he has done so, the pilot is a very reckless dude, putting at risk a very expensive plane over india's most populated city by doing hammerheads with an armed plane or was he joyriding.

BTW, off-topic, How can one watch fighter planes takeoff and land in India, Is there a hangout outside the Pune AFB. Also, anybody here did some spotting during the 1999 Kargil war when there was a danger of Bombay being attacked by pakistan, I know some planes were observed then at Sahar, which ones?

This is not lies, I know that pilot and I've seen him do it myself. His MiG-29 was
really graceful and it flies real slow when it dose a hammerhead stall, it looks more like a VTOL Sea Harrier rather than a MiG. Also the area around Powai where the IIT campus is located is off the city limits, in a forested area near Powai Lake from where many crocodiles and leopards stray into the campus grounds forcing IITians to stay indoors in their hostel rooms after sunset. Now thats again no jokes if you want to believe or not.......but its absolutely true....thats India

Lohegaon AFS at Pune, home to the Flankers like this one, "007" flown by Bond lol.... is the best place to see fighters in India. The base got modern fighters, but architectural style dates back to pre WW II England.... barbed wire fences, corrugated sheet barracks and English bonded brick masonry warehouses, looks more like it houses Spitfires and Hawker Hurricanes rather than Flankers and Fulcrums

**~~Cowboykiller~~** · 27 May 05,, 17:01

I'm about to ETS with the U.S. Army and I would love to enlist in the Air Force just to be around this fine ass fighter. Maybe I could help maintain this bird if they can train me for that role.

Too bad Travis AFB won't be getting them. That's just an 1.5 hours away from where I live (SF).

**~~Cowboykiller~~** · 27 May 05,, 17:21

Originally Posted by FlyingCaddy

"All-in-all it just boils down to this. Whatever the Americans have, the Russians have better. The failure of the Sabres against Korean MiGs saw the development of the F-5. The low kill ratios of the Phantoms and F-5s against the nimble MiGs over N. Vietnam saw the development of the F-16 and the high speed MiG-25 lead to the F-15s development. Yet an integrated BVR attack capable IAF MiG 21 Bison armed with a Phazotron Kopyo-M radar and R-77 BVRAAMs can still “schlemm” any F-16. And while the ATF program began in the early 1980s with the YF-22 making its maiden flight in September 1990 the F-22 probably won’t be fully operational with the USAF by 2008-2010. So with the F-22 being technologically three decades old one can only fathom how much superior the MiG MFI is. "

I know this might be a tad stale but I cant let such a sophomoric comment stand without some contest. This guy has minimal understading of the F-86 and the F-4's development. First, during Korea the Sabre kicked some mig ass and took names, the sabre had a 12:1 kill ratio over MiG 15. AS one military analysist put it, the Mig 15 was a flying tractor and the F-86 was a plane. The F-4 did not develop from the f-86. The F-4 was a combination of the multiple 1950s interceptor models (F-100, 101, 102, 103, and 104) and the need for a offensive fighter (something that could engage enemy fighters not just attack bombers). The F-4 certainly was a disappointment in its orginal models, ie the lack of any guns, difficulties with the Sidewinder. However, by the end of Nam American pilots flying a later model F-4 with a 20mm gattling gun, and improved Missle systems DOMINATED the NVA's Mig 17s and 21s. Nonetheless, it is an anemic argument to state the NVA air force forced the development of the F-16, only 5 american pilots become aces, becasue the NVa Airforce rarely engaged in the South where most American sorties took place, and the American pilot's biggest worry was the AAA not the MiG.

Dude, that's an arrogant statement when you consider that the AMERICAN/Israeli F-15A/C has a perfect combat record MOSTLY ON CHEAP RUSSIAN aircrafts (including the cheap Mig-29s). No Russian fighter can match the combat records of our teen fighter series (F-14 to the F/A-18)which prayed primarily on RUSSIAN aircrafts. And oh, had we installed guns on the F-4 (F-8's were better gunfighters) on the earlier versions (as you said) along with the usual AAMs, nobody would even mention the Fishbed during the Vietnam War.

A P-51D Mustang armed with an AIM-120C (and the proper radar to go with it) can knock out an SU-37.

If countries could afford any fighters in the world (no political restrictions), the Russians would be out of business.

**Bill** · 27 May 05,, 18:21

I know a lot of USAF officers and SNCOs if you're serious about that CK.

Let me know, i'm sure i could get you a recco from a few field grades, and get the skids greased for you.

**barrowaj** · 28 May 05,, 17:22

Originally Posted by Cowboykiller

If countries could afford any fighters in the world (no political restrictions), the Russians would be out of business.

True. But I'm also convinced that if you gave the US pilots all of the Iraqi aircraft, and the Iraqis American aircraft during the Gulf War, we would have still kicked their asses.

I beleive the only Iraqi A-A victory was a Mig-25 shooting down an F-18. I remember reading stories about how us soldiers are still looking for the F-18 pilot. Supposedly he was spotted by someone a couple of years ago after the invasion. I don't know why he wouldn't reveal himself and try to go home though... brainwashing?

The Mig-29 isn't as good as an F-16. But in my opinion, engagements against US aircraft have been one sided mostly due to intelligence (AWACS), training, and radar coverage.

**~~Cowboykiller~~** · 29 May 05,, 10:05

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

I know a lot of USAF officers and SNCOs if you're serious about that CK.

Let me know, i'm sure i could get you a recco from a few field grades, and get the skids greased for you.

Thanks dude! I might just e-mail you on that one of these days.

**~~Cowboykiller~~** · 29 May 05,, 10:08

Originally Posted by barrowaj

True. But I'm also convinced that if you gave the US pilots all of the Iraqi aircraft, and the Iraqis American aircraft during the Gulf War, we would have still kicked their asses.

I beleive the only Iraqi A-A victory was a Mig-25 shooting down an F-18. I remember reading stories about how us soldiers are still looking for the F-18 pilot. Supposedly he was spotted by someone a couple of years ago after the invasion. I don't know why he wouldn't reveal himself and try to go home though... brainwashing?

The Mig-29 isn't as good as an F-16. But in my opinion, engagements against US aircraft have been one sided mostly due to intelligence (AWACS), training, and radar coverage.

No self-respecting American pilot would ever hop on an Iraqi maintained aircraft., but yeah...American pilots are just plain superior.

**bus on the sky** · 21 Jun 06,, 22:50

SORRY I DON'T SPEAK AND WRITE
ENGLISH
in the american airbase GRANFORD there was an air-game-fight
su-27 vs. f-15, 1995-96? ,i don't know exact time-date, two su-27 came to that base,
the fights ware BVR with help of AWAKS two vs. two, and dog-fight one vs.one
doggfight was samothing like this= first would take off one plane, and the second-enemy would take off about 600m behind first plane and the mission of the second was to stay in the tailzone of the first plane,first plane would try to eskape the second-attacer plane.the result whas that when the su27 was firstplane,after 1 or 2 minutes and small number "maneovrus" (sorry-bad english) he eskape the atacker and become attacker-he entered in the tail of F15
when the su27 was attacker, f15 coldn't eskape from su27, russsian pilots stay in tailzone of f15 from takeoff to landing
the second game was BVR, two vs. two whith help of AWAKS, tactic of russan pilots was that thy didn't go into BVR fight,they hide from the americans.... and try to come closer to f15 and kill-engage them with short range weapons-rockets

then russians go to south africa republic and again the defeat the pilots of south africa republic airforce
the result was 42:0 for russsians
there was another game in the INDIA organise by the US, the examine in fight Mig21-93 (onboard-R77), and mig21-93 was wery god against f15,maybe no like su27 bat dangerous to f15
conclusion:
in the war-fight with same conditions to both side, suhoi27 is better then any world aircraft
in the WAR-conditions DAVID vs. GOLIAT ( kosovo war=1 mig-29 in the sky vs. 50 nato planes , golf war=similaR SITUATION LIKE KOSOVO etc.....) americans are THE BEST.....(i am ironic to those who don't understand "THE BEST")

QUOTE:
No Russian fighter can match the combat records of our teen fighter series (F-14 to the F/A-18)
combat records????
TRUE! BUT THE REASON IS:
WAR-conditions "DAVID vs. GOLIAT" ( kosovo war= ONE! mig-29 in the sky vs. 50 nato planes, 4+awacs vs. 1mig(radar turn-off) in the fight

**bus on the sky** · 21 Jun 06,, 23:31

Originally Posted by avon1944

> Mr Vastu
> Russia has more MiG 1.42s than the USAF have speculated with the "Star
> Trek"-styled plasma cloaking device to hide from enemy rada
The B-2 bomber also has this form of ECM! The leading edge of the wings have a high voltage wire in the leading edge of the wings to interferre with RF signals.
The leading edge of the B-2 is not straight! I did the calculations and the arc has a radius of 2,450 feet (approximately)!

> Dima
> actually, i am 15
You are one year older than my oldest grand daughter! "Smile"

> the F-117 was shot down by either a SA-3 or SA-6, and then was finished
> off with AAA fire on March 27
The F-117 was shot down because the USAF got arrogant! They flew the F-117 into the same target area, at the same time, same altitude for three days in a row. On the fourth day the Serbian AD moved a mobile radar into a gap between two fixed radar sites. Right on schedule the F-117 came along just as the mobile site went active! The F-117 flew almost directly over the radar site. The data was passed along to the SAM site and it was an easy kill.
The USAF denied the kill (even though CNN was showing the wreckage) until the pilot had been picked up by CSAR.

> A2A combat, if you guys want to use that as a way to measure an aircraft's
> efficiency, then i hope that it would please you to know that in every
> engagement(Gulf War Yugoslavia etc.) the MiG-29's were outnumbered by at
> least 5+:1
They were outnumbered in total but, not per engagement! The US does not like furballs so they prefer fights of 4V4 or less to take advantage of the technical superiority.

> they were export models, and they were MiG-29A's going against upgraded
> F-16's and F-15's
Does this mean if Israel loses an F-15 or F-16, the USA should not fully count this because the USA sold Israel aircraft that did not have all the bells, buttons or, whistles the USA "loves?" NO.... you use the equiptment you have and don't cry, air combat is a "no escuse" world! You do or you don't do but you don't try!!!

> minimally supported in combat(unlike the F-16's who had a AWACS
Iraqi aircraft had GCI which is a ground borne AWACS.

> there is a lot more in making an aircraft stealthy than just covering up
> the radar
Yes in many applications RAM can not be used

----------------------------------------------------
The MiG.-29 Kill Record
1988 V-PVO four -MiG.-29A's killed for four Su-22M-3K's of the DRAAF with R-60 Missiles.

Mid-04/88 IrAF MiG.-29 killed a MiG.-29 with a R-60M Missile (fratricide)

02/25/92 Erethian MiG.-29B killed a Su-27S Ethiopian with R-27 Missile (Unconfired)

06/23/92 RuAF four MiG.-29C's killed four MiG.-29C' Moldova AF

03/04/96 RuAF MiG.-29C killed a Yak-40 ? AF with a R-73 Missile

07/22/01 V-VS MiG.-29 Forced Down a B-747 PI AL

xx/yy/zz Cuban MiG.-29 killed a Cessna
----------------------------------------------------

> ???
> did the MiG-29 shoot down any coalition aircraft in 1991?
No, a MiG-25PH killed a F/A-18C with a R-40 Missile -Now the US Navy acknowledges the kill BUT, the IRAF does "NOT" claim the kill!

> The failure of the Sabres against Korean MiGs saw the development of
> the F-5.
YOU HAVE A LOT OF INCORRECT INFORMATION!!
Russian pilots who fought in Korea acknowledge a 7:1 kill ratio F-86's favor! There is a book that has been writened by Soviet pilots who fought in Korea! It was advertised on the ACIG website.

> The low kill ratios of the Phantoms and F-5s against the nimble MiGs over
> N. Vietnam
The USA "always" had a positive kill ratio! It was far lower than what the US is used to. When US pilots learned to fight the MiG.'s in the verticle plane not the horizontal plane the scores went up.
The US Navy started Top Gun. Before the bombing halt the kill ratio was 2.29:1 and after the bombing halt with Top Gun the kill ratio went up to 13:1 and stayed that way.

> The low kill ratios of the Phantoms and F-5s against the nimble MiGs over
> N. Vietnam saw the development of the F-16 and the high speed MiG-25 lead
> to the F-15s development.
Number one, the USAF does not use the F-5 as a combat aircraft. The F-5 is used as a trainer, aggressor and, export fighter for friendly nations.
Number two, the problems the Phantom faced was the usage of wrong tactics against the Mig.'s. Once the tactics problem was solved the Phantoms ruled the skies.
Capt. Steve Richie the USAF's only pilot ace went through two tours in Viet Nam and returned home where he finally recieved DACT, from Red Flag (which was started after the US involvement in the war)!

> the YF-22 making its maiden flight in September 1990 the F-22 probably
> won’t be fully operational with the USAF by 2008-2010. So with the F-22
> being technologically three decades old one can only fathom how much
> superior the MiG MFI is. "
The F-22's stationed at Langley AFB, Virginia, USA are now operational. In 2008, the F-22's will recieve its first of many planned improvement programs.
The ATF program started in the late 1970's. The USAF and other intelligence agencies work together and figured out what technology would be available to Soviet designers in the time period of 1990 to 2010. The report was very accurate, the F-22's parameters were based upon the report. The F-22 was to become operational in Clinton's first term. The end of the Cold War caused those in Washington to stretch out the schedule. The process is as foolish as paying on a credit card three times the minimum amount. Then to save money you decide to make minimum payments only, the results are the whole programs winds up costing far more money.
When it comes to a program taking a while Number One would have to be the Su-27! It started the same year the F-14 and F-15 started -1969. The Su-27 did not become operational until 1988! The F-14's initial operation in late 1974 and the F-15 in 1976.

> The F-4 did not develop from the f-86
NO! The F-86 was developed from the US Navy's FJ Fury program! The FJ Fury was designed by North American Aircraft Co. The F-4H was design by McDonnelDouglas Aircraft Co.

> The F-4 was a combination of the multiple 1950s interceptor models (F-100,
> 101, 102, 103, and 104)
The F-4H Phantom was designed to fill the Navy's need for an interceptor to deal with Soviet bombers.

> the need for a offensive fighter (something that could engage enemy
> fighters not just attack bombers
The Phantom was designed to go a long way at high speed to intercept bombers. Now when killing bombers they are known to be bad guys. It was thought that missiles would be all it needed.
(The MiG.-21 was also designed without a gun but the lack of confidence in the Atoll Missiles quickly changed minds and a gun was installed before production!)

> The F-4 certainly was a disappointment in its orginal models, ie the lack
> of any guns, difficulties with the Sidewinder.
I would suggest you read the Ault Report by Cmd. Frank Ault. The report showed the problem was not the plane but the lack of realistic training. That 65% of the missiles that missed were fired when eith the launch aircraft or the target were outside launch parameters.
Top Gun was started during the 1968 bombing halt over VN. Some of Cmd. Ault's Report indicated preliminary results showed a new training program was needed.
While the pilots saw a need for a gun, the F-4H Phantom was given praise for its all around performance. It was a jack of all trades and master of none.
It could be a good light bomber, Wild Weasel, fighter, interceptor, etc.

> it is an anemic argument to state the NVA air force forced the development
> of the F-16
NO, the YF-16 and YF-17 were borne of a need to find a cheaper solution for the number of fighters needed. The F-14A and F-15A were considered too expensive.

> only 5 american pilots become aces
Only two of them were pilots! Lt Cunningham and Capt. Richie the other were RIO's or WSO's! Actually this was pretty good when you consider that a US pilot only flew 100 missions and was sent home. Let us not forget the horrible/ridiculous ROE's impossed by Washington.
"The Russian or North Viet Namese are not our enemies; they are our adversaries. Our enemies are the politicians in Washington, D.C.!" -Lt. Col. Lloyd "Boots" Boothby USAF (Ret.)

> So with the F-22 being technologically three decades old one can only
> fathom how much superior the MiG MFI is. "
The F-22's were so advance to start with. It computer running at a clock speed of 10.5 GigaHertz!!!
( As one who worked as an IC Layout Engineer -Intel does not offer the latest in technolgy! They offer the latest in technology at an affordable "price." There are companies here in Silicon Valley who do custom IC work. If like NSA, CIA and, other government agencies which must have the latest in technology plus willing to spend say... $50,000 per chip (or more) you are able to get all sorts of great stuff.
I used the figure of $50,000 per chip because the highest price "that I know of" a circuit I worked on, was that price. It was a special product in the mid-1970's and NASA was the customer!
While many professors were submitting papers stated MOS circuits could never work above 10 MHtz back in 1968. The company I worked at alread had P-channel circuits working at that speed. Shortly after this this speed was greatly exceeded.

> "The failure of the Sabres against Korean MiGs saw the development of
> the F-5."
The F-5 was borne of the need to supply US Allies with a fighter plane that is equal in performance to the MiG.-21 but, the F-5 like the MiG.-21 does not have the ability to export a fight.

Top Gun the kill ratio went up to 13:1 and stayed that way.???
VERY FAR FROM THE .....REALITY
FIRST YOU MUST UNDERSTAND the way of cuonting MIGs kill by the US air force
after the flight-fight americans ware watching the gun-cameras and in the last day of war if they count only 3 hits on the MIGs body,(3 bulets) by the 12.7mm gun shoting by the sabre, then they said that MIG was SHOT DOWN!? but there was situation, by the words of the american pilots , that MIG15 could take very big number of 12.7mm shots in to his body and stay on the sky.
3 hits 12.7mm could'n shot boys plain-toy from the sky!
so the question is is it true the kill ratio 13:1?
something similar is the ISRAEL VS SIRIA, 100:0 FOR ISRAEL?
BUT AMERICAN PAPERS WROTE THAT THERE IS A GUN CAMERA SHOTS FROM SIRIA PLANES,ON THE TAPE IS AT LEAST 22 SHOT DOWN ISRAEL PLAINS BY THE SIRIA PILOTS!?
SORRY, MY ENGLIS IS VERY BAD... AS YOU SEE...

**SRB** · 22 Jun 06,, 00:48

Bus on sky dont waste your time they dont like facts against US aircrafts.

Arrogant they were over my sky, with F-117 yeah right.
It is simple lie from USAF to cover up fiasco with F-117.
If it wasnt the case why all F-117 missions were cancel after Budjanovci debacle.
Also B-2 never get close to my conutry after 27 march.
On wiki there is data that two F-117 were hit.

Soviet pilots in MIG-15 kick US ass over Korea.
I belive long time in US kill ratio until I read book write by old Russian pilot about that war.
He said 2:1 in favor of Soviet pilots and it is possible after all MIG-15 is better dog fighter.
Chinese and NK pilots were unexperience folks and that is why they lost so many planes.
As I know there were only 30 to 60 Soviet pilots and they wasnt there all war.
P.S. They could say that pilot of F-117 make phonecall to our AirDefence to say were he would be. And later he make many turns to make batter position for hit

**gunnut** · 22 Jun 06,, 01:30

So who's dominating the world now?

Let me get this straight, Russian tanks are better, planes are better, ships are better, socialism is better than capitalism, but yet the old Soviet Union crumbled.

Exactly in what field is the US better than Russian to enable us to dominate the world right now?

**JCSVT** · 22 Jun 06,, 03:10

Originally Posted by SRB

Also B-2 never get close to my conutry after 27 march.

Bwahahahahaha!!!! Wow. All those billions down the drain. All that research and money for nothing. I think we should just stop making stealth aircraft after that Russian SAM got a good shot. The Air Force could run a three B-2s through that country undetected right now and obiliterate it. Do you really think the guys up top are scared to run through Serbia? The F-117 has run thousands of sorties with one certified shot down. I don't know of many planes that can match that.

**Ranger C-5-89** · 22 Jun 06,, 03:58

I find this thread pretty hilarious......pseudo migs....super cosmic radar....Serbia being the kings of the air....

that leads me to ask.....what does Russia have that is equivalent to Bondo and duct tape?

**gunnut** · 22 Jun 06,, 04:00

Originally Posted by JCSVT

I don't know of many planes that can match that.

Oh, anyone with half a brain would know you can cover Yugoslavian sky with Russian planes and no one could even detect them.

So what happens if we use Russian planes to attack targets defended by Russian air defense? What if Russian planes meet not US, but planes that are much superior, like other Russian planes in the air? Would that cause a rift in the space-time continuum?