Does China have the capability to build a stealth fighter that can match F22 in 2020?

**Chunder** · 06 Jul 08,, 00:23

Originally Posted by Versus

OMG another Raptor thread....

Honestly you can build the stealth platform in less than six months, it is not that hard as stealth hype suggests...

Thats why it took the U.S over a decade to produce the SR 71, probably more, same for the F-117, 15 years for the F-22, and a decade, if not more for the F-35.

And thats with all the money that the arsenal of democracy can throw at it, with experience dating back to the 1960's, With some of the highest paid brains working on the some of the worlds most classified information.

Al this leads me to believe that your
a) A Troll
b) An armchair general
c) A skeptic that likes to degenerate any thing that the west produces
d) Or just an idiot.
e) Were smoking dope at the time of posting.

I don't know which to pick.

Considering since all of Chinas progress has been made from ripping off the intellectual property of others, or being sold U.S tech from third party's such as Israel. I'd be inclined to think that since No one will be getting F-22 tech from the U.S, I'd say chinas chances are jack all.

**Officer of Engineers** · 06 Jul 08,, 01:02

Originally Posted by Chunder

I don't know which to pick.

He's a veteran of the Yugoslav Wars.

**Jimmy** · 06 Jul 08,, 02:10

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

He's a veteran of the Yugoslav Wars.

Optically targetting one certainly does make them experts on design and manufacture.

Wait...

**Ray** · 06 Jul 08,, 02:45

Actually China clones foreign aircraft and calls it their own.

The usual Chinese mode of indicating their own.

It is like the Daewoo Matiz car which China passes as their own under the label Cherry!

cherry QQ, a chinese car brand, was accused by foreign car manufacturers of imitating their car designs. QQ has become a favorite model among females because of its cute design and money-for-value.
who says money buys value - cherry QQ

**kuku** · 06 Jul 08,, 03:31

lovely car Sir,

Matiz, that was the car a good firend of mine got right after daewoo motors crashed, people were so damn afraid of spare parts not going to be available, wonderful car, sad thing that the company was burned to ashes, good for us though people just could not wait to get rid of their cars.

And 3 guys, none of us in the light weight catagory, 5.10, 5.11 and 6.2 in height, were able to fit in that car without any trouble, with enough power to roam around in delhi.

Such a wonderfull thing that its being manufactured in China, That GM company chevrolet is manufacturing the Matiz again in India, this time its called Chevrolet Spark, priced in a very competitive region.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ewoo_Matiz.jpg

Martiz

http://www.thetycho.com/galleries/chery_qq_1.jpg
QQ3

And the new matiz Chevrolet Spark.

http://www.carwale.com/images/RoadTe...%20Dynamic.jpg

However as my dad says, its not just how the vehicle looks, half the part is the engine, and the other half is the service network.

Of course China can manufacture a F-22ish plane, just make one that looks the part and can fly around and you know what claim it to be a superior plane with magic of space tech. If someone questions the validity of your claims, just tell them "oh ya!! and well you are fat :P "

**~~pravin~~** · 06 Jul 08,, 05:53

Those Chinese planes must also be like those Chinese products Use-and-throw
variety i think

**Versus** · 06 Jul 08,, 07:26

Originally Posted by Chunder

Thats why it took the U.S over a decade to produce the SR 71, probably more, same for the F-117, 15 years for the F-22, and a decade, if not more for the F-35.

And thats with all the money that the arsenal of democracy can throw at it, with experience dating back to the 1960's, With some of the highest paid brains working on the some of the worlds most classified information.

Al this leads me to believe that your
a) A Troll
b) An armchair general
c) A skeptic that likes to degenerate any thing that the west produces
d) Or just an idiot.
e) Were smoking dope at the time of posting.

I don't know which to pick.

Considering since all of Chinas progress has been made from ripping off the intellectual property of others, or being sold U.S tech from third party's such as Israel. I'd be inclined to think that since No one will be getting F-22 tech from the U.S, I'd say chinas chances are jack all.

Hmmmm...let's see:
A) I'm a troll?
I don't think of myself as a troll, although I have to add that my BMI suggests so. Need to get that diet plan working.
B)Armchair General.
Nope, I was drafted and wasn't promoted during my service. I served in the air force for one period and than shifted units as military needs suggested. But again I went as a grunt and got discharged as a grunt. No pension, no benefits, no nothing...
C)A skeptic.
Why, most certainly . I am skeptic but not as much as you might think. More of cynical type of person when military stuff comes in mind. For the most part, that is because I served in the military and was in a war and saw how that works. Not very impressed all together. It is a hard and very dangerous job. Once during the training on 30 mm AA cannon, lieutenant asked the gun crew what orders the commander should give if they see an AH 64 apache helicopter...I said :"Run for your lives"...and he heard me, so that day didn't end well for me.
D) An idiot.
My IQ is 117 so I don't think so.
E) Dope?
Nope...just regular Viceroy ultra light. Need to cut that too...

Actually, the true reason why I get so irritated with all this stealth hype is simply cause I favor Northrop-Grumman designs over the Lockheed Martin ones. Hats down to the Skunk Works but...when stealth is in question I think that Northrop has the edge.
But one thing that is more irritating than anything else is an attitude that says that other people,scientists and nations other than the Americans and/or Western part of the story, don't have the capacity to think. Placing a pile of cash on some project will get you the result,but it doesn't guarantee that the result will be good.

**Ray** · 06 Jul 08,, 08:21

Kuku,

I own a Matiz.

Honestly, it is great car.

I have done Calcutta - Secunderabad twice and Secunderabad - Bangalore once. On the latter I got 21 km per litre, full tank to full tank!

**Skywatcher** · 06 Jul 08,, 11:00

Oh great, just when I thought the Grumann Lockheed wars were over.

I think the more appropriate issue for this thread is how great America's technological lead will be in 2020 against... well, everyone else.

**~~pravin~~** · 06 Jul 08,, 12:42

Posted by ray sir
I have done Calcutta - Secunderabad twice and Secunderabad - Bangalore once. On the latter I got 21 km per litre, full tank to full tank

Ray Sir
Do you come to Secunderabad often??i am currently in Hyderabad

**xunil** · 06 Jul 08,, 14:41

This may give you view of whether China has the capability to build a stealth fighter. And what is need for the transformation of Chinese defence industry.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
A New Direction for China’s Defense Industry

By: Evan S. Medeiros, Roger Cliff, Keith Crane, James C. Mulvenon

Since the early 1980s, a prominent and consistent conclusion drawn from research on China’s defense-industrial complex has been that China’s defense-production capabilities are rife with weaknesses and limitations. This study argues for an alternative approach: From the vantage point of 2005, it is time to shift the focus of current research to the gradual improvements in and the future potential of China’s defense-industrial complex. The study found that China’s defense sectors are designing and producing a wide range of increasingly advanced weapons that, in the short term, are relevant to a possible conflict over Taiwan but also to China’s long-term military presence in Asia. Part of a larger RAND Project AIR FORCE study on Chinese military modernization, this study examines the current and future capabilities of China’s defense industry.

The goals of this study are to

1. Assess recent trends in China’s 25-year-long effort to reform its defense industry
2. Analyze the individual strengths and weaknesses of four specific defense-industrial sectors: missile, aircraft, shipbuilding, and information technology
3. Explain variations in performance among different defense-industry sectors, with a focus on differences in institutional arrangements, incentives, and exposure to market forces
4. Evaluate the prospects for China’s defense industry and its ability to contribute to military modernization. The information presented in this report is based on previous RAND Project AIR FORCE work, and on primary and secondary English and Chinese sources.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2005/RAND_MG334.pdf

**Chunder** · 06 Jul 08,, 16:04

Originally Posted by Versus

Hmmmm...let's see:
A) I'm a troll?
I don't think of myself as a troll, although I have to add that my BMI suggests so. Need to get that diet plan working.
B)Armchair General.
Nope, I was drafted and wasn't promoted during my service. I served in the air force for one period and than shifted units as military needs suggested. But again I went as a grunt and got discharged as a grunt. No pension, no benefits, no nothing...
C)A skeptic.
Why, most certainly . I am skeptic but not as much as you might think. More of cynical type of person when military stuff comes in mind. For the most part, that is because I served in the military and was in a war and saw how that works. Not very impressed all together. It is a hard and very dangerous job. Once during the training on 30 mm AA cannon, lieutenant asked the gun crew what orders the commander should give if they see an AH 64 apache helicopter...I said :"Run for your lives"...and he heard me, so that day didn't end well for me.
D) An idiot.
My IQ is 117 so I don't think so.
E) Dope?
Nope...just regular Viceroy ultra light. Need to cut that too...

Actually, the true reason why I get so irritated with all this stealth hype is simply cause I favor Northrop-Grumman designs over the Lockheed Martin ones. Hats down to the Skunk Works but...when stealth is in question I think that Northrop has the edge.
But one thing that is more irritating than anything else is an attitude that says that other people,scientists and nations other than the Americans and/or Western part of the story, don't have the capacity to think. Placing a pile of cash on some project will get you the result,but it doesn't guarantee that the result will be good.

Fair enough, in which case my apologies. please state as such, discounting pisses me off too. Though it's not a simple process of blended structure and angular shapes far from it. It's a very complicated matrix of design aptitude, coupled with (especially the F-22) specialised rare machine tooling that had to be developed just for the purposes.

Coupled with proprietry information and innovation and export restrictions combine to make the process of copying so much harder than manufacturing rivets and reverse engineering a B29.

All of this of course, ignores the fact that if the U.S can go from the F-117 to F-22 Operational service in less than 20 years, just where they will be by 2020. Why China is NO prior stealth technology let alone suitable engine R&D or software R&D will be able to build a f-22 equivelant that will be operational in *cough* 11 1/2 years time (if they started right now) makes any suggestion that they can off the mark. Their engine technology isn't much better than U.S engine technology that existed in the late 60's....

They don't have the capability because they don't have the industry speciality that is required. Chengdu have such a huge lack of faith in their own ability to manufacture plains, all of their designs are evolved MiG 21 designs, or Su 27 ripoffs.

That says a lot.

**~~IceMan~~** · 07 Jul 08,, 11:00

Originally Posted by Ray

Actually China clones foreign aircraft and calls it their own.

The usual Chinese mode of indicating their own.

Cherry!

Actually, China did buy su-27 license from Russia.

**~~IceMan~~** · 07 Jul 08,, 11:40

Originally Posted by Chunder

They don't have the capability because they don't have the industry speciality that is required. Chengdu have such a huge lack of faith in their own ability to manufacture plains, all of their designs are evolved MiG 21 designs, or Su 27 ripoffs.

That says a lot.

On the contrary, Chendu won the project of Chinese next-generation stealth fighter on the besis of it's successful design of J10.

This project is tough cause' Chinese have to face many difficulties without help from other country, such as AESE radar, WS15 engine, integrated fly control system, TVC....

So as long as this project can meet it's deadline(2020), China will shorter the distance with US air force by 20 years

**~~IceMan~~** · 07 Jul 08,, 12:08

Originally Posted by Chunder

China still manufactures varients of the fishbed, what on earth makes you think they can just build an f 22 equivelant from scratch, with NO prior stealth experience, and absolutely no one with prior experience in stealth technology.

Heck thier airforce is loaded with fighters not much, if any better than vietnam era Phantoms, and that was 40 years ago. They can barely build a carrier, 80 years after they started being used in warfare, and they probably won't have one operational in 20 years.

All this is conveniently ignoring the fact that creativity is held back somewhat by communist control, assuring anyone who starts to develop it gets snatched up, and made to work with people they don't know how to.

1. China can't manufacture a steel nail by 1949.
Nowadays China produced more than 0.3 billion ton steel annually.

2. I can tell you there will be a CV operational in China within 5 years maybe less.

3. Communist control has no relationship with creativity, just compare patent number from China and India you will get the right idea.