LCA Vs FC1/JF17

**bull** · 01 Feb 05,, 11:47

FC -/JF 17 LCA -Tejas
Financials
R&D Cost USD 450m to 500m USD 480m to 700m
Unit Cost USD 15-20m USD 17m-26m

Dimensions
Wing span 9 m 8.2m
Height 5.10m 4.4m
length 14m 13.2m

Operational Figures
Speed 1.6Mach 1.7Mach
Ceiling 16,500m 16,400m
Range 3,000km 840km
Inflight refueling Under dev. Yes
G Limit 8.5 9 / -3.5
Weight(take off) 12,700kg 8500kg
Weapons load 3,900kg 4000kg

Engine/Arms
Engine RD -33 turbo Kaveri GTX-35VS
Fire Control Radar Grifo S-7 GE AN/APG 67C multi mode
BVR SD-10 Astra ,R-73RDM2
Short AAM AIM -9P/PL-9/Magic 2 Magic2/AA8

Important Dates
Project started on 1994 1985
First test flight Sep 3rd,2003 Jan 4th,2001
Serial Production January,2006 2010
Induction Nos 150 200+

while the JF17 was conceived and develped in a very short period of time the lca has been under development for almost 2 decades.i read on a few web sites that during the development period of fighter aircraft it has to go thru something like 1500 hrs of test flight.

Considering all these,is JF17 an entirely new aircraft as being projected to be or reworked existing FC?Its come up in a such a short period its hard to believe!

Comments plsss.....

**Officer of Engineers** · 01 Feb 05,, 15:13

I have a few sources who has contacts within the PLAAF and they're adament that the FC-1 is still a MiG-21 airframe.

**Jay** · 01 Feb 05,, 16:12

oh God, not another thread!!

Both the flights are un-tested in real warfsre, heck they arent even deployed yet. So what ever comparisions are gonna flow out, will just be in paper.

**Officer of Engineers** · 01 Feb 05,, 16:47

Originally Posted by Jay

oh God, not another thread!!

Both the flights are un-tested in real warfsre, heck they arent even deployed yet. So what ever comparisions are gonna flow out, will just be in paper.

Not quite. If our PLAAF sources are correct, then the FC-1 is a glorified MiG-21 which has seen combat.

**ajaybhutani** · 01 Feb 05,, 16:51

Lemme try summing it up with results of loads of discussions all ove rthe net.
LCA
1. Better technology.(avionics airframe composites etc etc)
2. Better engine
3. not a main fighter but only for numbers.
4. Though astra is still in development but it shud be able to use a lot of missiles bombs etc etc.
5. Full digital FBW
6. more expensive than JF17 but offers higher end technology. Though it needs to be seen how much the technology transforms in gains.
7. Will help in dev of MCA IJT AJT etc etc.
8. Dev time is killing and preventing india from even purchasing foreign fighters and in a way weaking AF in the medium term.Thouhg might be benefitial at the long term.
9 Naval version and Trainer version too in the line.

JF17
1. Faster development time.
2. Essentially an extension of an already exsitent frame.
3. No composites.
4. Is if Full digital FBW( the current techonology demonstrators )??though final plans for full digital FBW.
5. Problem with the engine as russians are not intereseted in supplying RD33 ( due to indian pressure.
6. Missile to be used SD10 is stil under development.
7. It will form the main frontline fighter for Paksitan. and needs to compete with MKI and even PAK-FA in the future.
8. lower costs might force up compromising in better avionics etc.
9 good for developing countires .will help china make up numbers in export.
10. Budget prob will force paksitan compromise on numbers when J10 comes out or if F16 comes in.
11. The RCS comparison and radars used in the two will greatly determine who comes out. better or comparable.

did i leave somethin??

**Dima** · 01 Feb 05,, 21:45

Pakistan won't opt for anymore F-16's now, in the future they're going to get the JF-17(official designation) possibly 150+, the PAK-FA, beautiful aircraft, absolutely gorgeous

http://www.translate.ru/url/tran_url...2Fpakfasu.html
if the pictures don't work, right click on them, view picture

or, if that doesn't work, here's the link in Russian

http://paralay.narod.ru/pakfasu.html

personally, i don't think that the JF-17 has a chance against the T-50, the thing is that India will continue to operate their heavy fighter Su-30MKI, thats the only given so far

but for me, India is sending mixed signals, with them holding a tender for 125 aircraft that will replace their MiG 21BIS', well, if they're holding a tender now to replace their light fighters, then what will become of the LCA, India has alreday spent millions on the development of this project, so whats the point of buying a new Light aircraft 5 years before the LCA is due to come out, especially buying 125 aircraft, thats a lot

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040301/main7.htm
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=204502
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/29iaf.htm
http://www.indiadefence.com/mig21repl.htm

PAK-FA will fill in the role of the Mirage 2000, because they are both medium fighters(PAK-FA weighing in at 20 tons, and the JSF will weigh about 16.4 tons and the Raptor weighs in at about 24 tons

well, thats all, so, i guess that the Indian airforce will look something like this

150+ Su-30MKI, 100+ T-50 aircraft, 125+ F-16/Mirage 2000-5/Gripen/MiG-29M/LCA

correct me if i'm wrong, thanks

**ZFBoxcar** · 01 Feb 05,, 21:59

"150+ Su-30MKI, 100+ T-50 aircraft, 125+ F-16/Mirage 2000-5/Gripen/MiG-29M/LCA"

Since when does India have F-16s?

**tu160mblackjack** · 01 Feb 05,, 22:38

Gripen? F-16? India doesn't nor has plans to induct these aircraft into it's airforce.
If u ask me, u need to change your sources.

**Jay** · 01 Feb 05,, 23:29

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Not quite. If our PLAAF sources are correct, then the FC-1 is a glorified MiG-21 which has seen combat.

Thats quite intresting, Sir. India will be phasing out MiG 21's with LCA's and Pakistan is going to induct them as their frontline fighters ??

**Dima** · 02 Feb 05,, 05:55

Originally Posted by ZFBoxcar

"150+ Su-30MKI, 100+ T-50 aircraft, 125+ F-16/Mirage 2000-5/Gripen/MiG-29M/LCA"

Since when does India have F-16s?

read those four links in a row, India is going to hold a tender to replace 125 of their 300 or so MiG 21's, in the tender, there will be the F-16, Mirage 2000-5, MiG-29M, and Gripen, so, one of these will win out, thats why i kept putting slahes in between, but this doesn't make sense buying 125 new light weight aircraft 4 years before the LCA is due to come out, so i slashed it in with these aircraft

wow, i just noticed thata lot of people are from Toronto, i live right beside Toronto in Brampton, the guy with a british flag, and Troung, their the only one's so far

**lemontree** · 02 Feb 05,, 06:57

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Not quite. If our PLAAF sources are correct, then the FC-1 is a glorified MiG-21 which has seen combat.

Sir,
Hav'nt the PLAAF used the PAF supplied F-16 to reverse engineer it?
Though the J-10 looks more like the F-16/Grippen mixture copy.
J-10 picture links
http://www.chinaimg.com/imglib/china...er/J10/003.jpg
http://www.chinaimg.com/imglib/china...er/J10/004.jpg
http://www.chinaimg.com/imglib/china...er/J10/005.jpg
http://www.chinaimg.com/imglib/china...er/J10/006.jpg
Compare the J-7 and FC-1 aka. Super-7
http://www.chinaimg.com/imglib/china...r/j7pg/007.jpg
http://www.chinaimg.com/imglib/china...r/FC-1/002.jpg
J-8V is similar to the FC-1
http://www.chinaimg.com/imglib/china...Vfancy/001.jpg

**bull** · 02 Feb 05,, 07:12

Originally Posted by Dima

read those four links in a row, India is going to hold a tender to replace 125 of their 300 or so MiG 21's, in the tender, there will be the F-16, Mirage 2000-5, MiG-29M, and Gripen, so, one of these will win out, thats why i kept putting slahes in between, but this doesn't make sense buying 125 new light weight aircraft 4 years before the LCA is due to come out, so i slashed it in with these aircraft

wow, i just noticed thata lot of people are from Toronto, i live right beside Toronto in Brampton, the guy with a british flag, and Troung, their the only one's so far

it doesnt make sense going for these european fighters or US fighetrs .first of all it is very costly and the IAF will find it definitly difficult to maintain so many variety of fighters.its better to buy russian fighters and upgrade them with western /isrealiavionics.Especially when wehave being doing well like that.
Anyway coming back to thetopic..these two fghters seems to have too many in common and with comments like JF17 is remodelled mig21...relativlty it means LCA also has to be a remodeled mig21!! !
howdoes it vary the lca with JF17??I am not asking for which is good...show me some distinct differences...both carry same armamanets,same speed,same dimensions(almost),same altitude.,fly by wire systems...where is the difference???

**ajaybhutani** · 02 Feb 05,, 07:14

dima,
i think LCA will be apart from teh scheduled 125 fighters to be inducted and their numbers shud be at least 100 or even more to make the investment worth .They have already started spending for the manufacturing facility.In case the 125 foreign fighters donot land in india then we will have bigger production facilities to make LCA in larger numbers. ( after all a lot of money would be left unspent.)
About T50 It wouldnt be fair to say that it will come to fill in the role of mirage 2000. as India uses M2K for ground attack while T50 will be more of a multirole fighter.

About the tender it would have gone thru months ago in favour of M2K-5 but since the recent crashes of M2K in india the fighter has lost the reputation it had. Though F16 and gripen would not see the indian colors due to their american parts/origin but if not M2K then it will be Mig29.I dunno how much but if we donot purchase LCA ourselves we can surely sell it outside . For it will come cheap and the onlky thing cheaper (JF17) already has a lot of numbers in prooduction book. HAL is working hard to sell ALH and did get soem success .So i guess we might even get in some market for LCA.

**ajaybhutani** · 02 Feb 05,, 07:24

J 10 was a lavi(israeli program) extension .While there was even some news on net saying taht JF17 is mroe of the continuation of single engine version program of mig29 that was cancelled by russians and then designs sold to chineese. Thouhg maybe both are correct . The fighter designs that russians gave to chineese might be essentially carrying a lot of mig21 features making it comparable in airframe to mig21 .

**Officer of Engineers** · 02 Feb 05,, 08:39

Captain,

I can only go by what my sources tell me.

The Chinese have bastardized the MiG-21 airframe (and MiG-19 airframe before then) so often that various versions cannot be recognized from its humble origins. I suggest you look at the original J8 I version and you will see the MiG-21 heritage.

If we go by what happenned to the Q-5 attack plane, then the most modern version is unrecognizeable to its humble MiG-19 origins but the Q-5 is a MiG-19 but bastardized by the Italians and Israelis to no end.

The original FC-1 program was the Super 7 program, a J-7P replacement and essentially a MiG-21 with side inlets. Were there Russian influences on the FC-1? No doubt about it. The engines are a strong hint. They may have even told the Chinese about certain aspects of the new tail designs? But the PLAAF sources that I have access to is adament that this is still a MiG-21 airframe.