Thread: MiG-29 “FALCON HUNTER” Exclusive : THE WINNER

Originally Posted by Dima

i know that ameica spends way more than any other nation on defense, but the reason why some Russian aircraft(Su-27 for example) i think they're so effective is because they were funded by the USSR, which spent considerably more than Russia today, and upgrades don't cost as much in developing as a new aircraft, also, to manufacture products in Russia is 3 times cheaper than in America, resourcefullness

That's not much of an arguement,, the F-15 was funded by cold war era USA which also spent much more than they do today on defence. Your right that upgrades don't cost as much as a new aircraft,, case and point,, the F/A-22 vs. F-15C-E.
Believe what you want about the cost of manufacture in Russia, but there's something to be said about getting what you pay for. Part of the manufacture expense in the US has to do with quality and process control. American aircraft components are more expensive largely because of the quality of materials, quality of manufacture, and quality of corrosion prevention. Russia also depends more upon steel alloys than american aircraft. It's cheaper and in some cases stronger, but also much much heavier and corrosion prone. We spend much more time on strength analysis such that steels aren't necessary to achieve the strength and reliability that we want. Like I said,, you get what you pay for and I don't care if you believe that.

Originally Posted by Dima

...steel, lol, where do you get that from, really, i'm curious, i thought that all Russian aircraft are made out of a aluminum alloy, steel is crazy heavy

The MiG-25 was 80% tempered steel, 8% Titanium, and 11% Aluminum. Look at the normal takeoff weight, 81,000 lbs. for a Foxbat-E.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avmig251.html

Originally Posted by Dima

the Foxbat, one aircraft, any proof of others

and doesn't titanium make up a large portion of the F-22's surface?

titanium is relatively heavy

can you give me the difference between tempered steel and normal steel?

Actually Titanium is relatively light but more expensive

Titanium is extremely lightweight for it's strength.

Over 85% of the SR-71s skin was made of titanium.

The F-22s skin is comprised almost entirely of composites.

Originally Posted by Terran empire

Nothing made for the Russian military should ever be compared too a Mercedes heck not even a BMW

Wrong.......a Luftwaffe MiG-29 "Steinhoff" is most certainly........a Mercedes E Class :) while a smaller, slower, inferior F-16 is...........a Ford Escort

Originally Posted by Sir_Vastu

Wrong.......a Luftwaffe MiG-29 "Steinhoff" is most certainly........a Mercedes E Class :) while a smaller, slower, inferior F-16 is...........a Ford Escort

first those were pre Reunification and The Germans went and sold them off so they could get Eurofighters. I stand By my statement.

There is a reason the Mig-25 is made of titanium. It's the same reason the SR-71 is as well. It wasn't just a good idea, it was the ONLY idea to make both work.

Do you know why?

Titanium is far superior to aluminum alloys in all respects that don't involve economy and ease of construction.

Dima, you said all Russian aircraft were made out of aluminum. I was showing you that they weren't. Don't cry the blues to me about it. US aircraft of the same era were made of lightweight alloys, mostly aluminum and titanium. Russian AC were made out of steel. It was cheaper and easier to do, and the materials were more readily available to Russia to build in quantity. IIRC, in the 70's, something like 97% of the worlds titanium came from Colorado.

Modern Russian AC like the MiG-29 and SU-30 variants are made mostly out of aluminum-lithium alloys, because Russia has the capability to do that today and it's better than building them out of steel. Russia is one of the largest producers of aluminum in the world. Modern US AC like the F-22 and JSF are mostly made of composites, and titanium is used where high strength is needed. In the wings, only the intermediate spars on the Raptor are Ti, the rest are composite. High stress parts like landing gear struts and drag links are still Ti, and some parts of the airframe are Ti, like engine mounts, etc. That's why you see a relatively low (by US standards) percentage of Ti- it's mostly high-tech composites.

In general terms, titanium is as strong as steel and as light as aluminum. But it is much more expensive and lots more difficult to machine. Consider- you can mill aluminum at very high surface footages- 20,000 sfpm is typical for aluminum on high-speed machining centers. In contrast, you mill titanium at around 45 sfpm. Try to go much faster, and you work harden the part and melt down the cutter. Now you just scrapped a $15,000 forging. Ti machines much like precipitation hardening stainlesses- it's tougher than hell and eats cutters. This is a big reason Russian AC are cheaper to buy than US AC. Manufacturing and material costs factor significantly in the cost of the finished product.