well Mr_Vastu,
wether u like it or not. The US planes have performed better in combat and today are about to induct stuff like F22 which has a superputer inside it. Well facts are facts " the americans are very advanced in aviation." apart from some edges that russians enjoy in certain things the americans are a class apart when it comes to making a plane.
ajaybhutani, you are mistaken, the F-22 doesn't have a supercomputer in it, it has the equivalent computing power of two Crey supercomputers
thanks Vastu, that means a lot coming fromma guy who has such extensive knowledge, can you give me your email?
for MOTHER MOLDOVA
Well good morning,Originally Posted by Dima
how do u classify a platform as a supercomputer?? . Lemme tell u its "COMPUTING POWER"
go to the F-22 website, it says right there, look for it
for MOTHER MOLDOVA
"sigh" I had such hopes for you...
-SK
lol, are you sarcastic?
i don't undestand, he seems to know a lot about aircraft, what's wrong with him?
just curious, don't want to hang out with the wrong crowd
for MOTHER MOLDOVA
Well, for example he says that the MiG-29 controls are a "proper HOTAS" and that the F-16 side-stick controller is not. Meanwhile Russia is adopting side-stick HOTAS for its newer fighters because the MiG-29-style controls are not HOTAS and are obsolescent. All his other assertions that I've read make a similar amount of sense.
I don't want to discuss Mr. Vastu too personally though because he's banned and I don't think it's "fair" that he can't reply to defend himself - it's kind of a wasted effort. Maybe one day when he's not banned I'll write what I really think of him, then he can reply and get banned again, that way I get the most bang for my buck.
But in a broader sense I think I have a different way of separating aviation enthusiasts. I think most of you separate yourselves into "pro-Russian" or "pro-Western" enthusiasts or along similar lines. As an engineer I am interested in design compromises to solve actual problems. The difference I see is between "cheerleaders" and people who are interested in problems. For example, the F/A-22, amazing as it is, doesn't IMHO solve any US air combat problem at all and thus is almost powerless to interest me. The MiG-29 though is a response to an actual need for low-altitude interception capability, and thus fascinates me despite being a far less capable aircraft. Whether you are "pro-Russian" or "pro-Western" to me is irrelevant, as long as you are interested in discussing the "edge of the envelope" of engineering, where it meets technological limitations. This eliminates most people "in the know" because talking about any sort of limitations often feels like it's a betrayal of classified information (even when those same limitations are openly published in engineering textbooks). It's quite rare to meet enthusiasts who are truly interested to talk about the limitations of their favorite aircraft, but of the ones I've met, the majority are in the "pro-Russian" crowd, for the simple reason that Russian aircraft generally have more limitations. Although I was unwilling to be your personal e-mail encyclopedia myself, I had hoped that one day you might learn enough on your own enthusiasm to join this group that I like.
For me, Mr. Vastu represents the "dark side" of enthusiasm... Selective quotations, reliance on advertising, denial of the obvious with no justification other than blind non-conformity, ridiculous claims just to troll a response and lash out at a world that isn't the way he wants it to be. This is distasteful to an engineer. We don't live in imagination or a world of ads, wishes and lies, but rather actually build the real world the way we want it, and we accept the truth no matter how unpleasant it may be to hear.
People only fear what they don't understand, and once you start down Vastu's path, you will fear a great deal...
-SK
limitations, so that's what you're all about, cool, limitations, like pulling G's? lol, jus joking
cool, limitations of an aircraft, well have fun really, i am a pro-Russian, i kind of regret and not because i wish i could be more open, when you're more open to an idea, you tend to grasp the pro's and con's of each aircraft better than allowing your nationalism blind you, there are some American aircraft that i have much respect for, such as the F/A-18, my favourite American aircraft, also the F-14 is second, than F-22
sometimes, you can start a discussion on how this aircraft is better than another, and in almost every scenario, even though i know i'm going to lose, i will pick the Russian side, unless it's something obvious like MiG-15 vs. F-15, my teacher calls it stubborn integrity, lol, that's the best way to describe me
for MOTHER MOLDOVA
i think almost all of us have left ur absolute optimism about everything russian. Theres only one things wrong with it as it hampers judgement in a fair manner. Though i'll appreciate the fact that u firstly realized taht u are doing it and again had the guts to accept it . Now thats a dare.
Like I said earlier.......F-16 is just a Chevy, MiG-29 is........a Mercedes Benz!
Nothing made for the Russian military should ever be compared too a Mercedes heck not even a BMWLike I said earlier.......F-16 is just a Chevy, MiG-29 is........a Mercedes Benz!
russian military was what was needed for the russians at that time . It surely isnt a merc but if you dont have nough money a lancer would do rather than a merc
well, now i admit that the MiG-29 isn't as capable a fighter as i once thought it was, i also, have more respect towards American naval power, and the F-22, i'm still relatively negative on the F-15, and people stating that it is superior to the Flanker, which i think is the best aircraft in the world(in terms of cost-efficiency etc.)
and i still have my belief that Russian missiles are the best, but now i know that AESA radars are considerably better than Russian ones, it's just so hard to go anti-russian, because i like being the minority, the guy fighting against an entire crowd, it makes me feel good, and everyone here is against Russian arms, so i really have no choice
for MOTHER MOLDOVA
Russian rocket motors are the best, i'll give you that much.
But a missile also consists of a seeker....and the West is far ahead in most fields of electronics, which a seekeer is obviously full of.
There are so many things that a fighter aircraft SYSTEM is comprised of, and many people get hung up in one attribute such as agility, and if it has that one superior attribute people immediately want to call it the best.
I've never stated that I thought anything Russian was crap or that everything American is superior,,, only that our air superiority fighter SYSTEMS are superior. I never said that the F-15 could just stomp a Su-27 derivitives a$$ either. (Leaving the F/A-22 out of this particular arguement)
Trying to compare a Su-27 derivitive to an F-15 derivitive is meaningless unless you are willing to compare the entire system, meaning physical configuration, weight, armament range, effectiveness of armament seeker, armament speed and agility, armament selection an aircraft can carry, effectiveness of armament cueing systems such as JHMCS, fuel capacity/range, agility, defensive/offensive avionics systems, radar range, radar tracking capability, ability of radar to avoid being detected, radar resolution, reliability, engine thrust, engine response sensitivity, ability to shut down and restart an engine in a combat situation, effectiveness of aircraft flying with only one engine, resistance to inducing a spin and aircrafts ability to get out of a spin, wing loading, survivability, air to air and air to ground payload, PILOT TRAINING, pilot workload, RCS, heat signature, G-rating, flight envelope limitations, visibility from the cockpit, effectiveness of the flight control closed-loop feedback system, effectiveness of countermeasures, ability of an aircraft to effectively send/recieve/use data from another source, ability to switch between air to air and air to ground roles in flight, sortie turn-around time, etc, etc, etc,, I think you get the point.
Many people try to argue that the F-15 airframe is obsolete. I have two responses to that: First, take a look at the list above and tell me how many pieces of the overall figher aircraft SYSTEM that effects. Second, the F-15 airframe was WAY ahead of it's time, and is still a very potent, versatile, and capable platform. It has VERY low wing loading, and outstanding thrust to weight ratio, therefore allowing it to be extremely agile. Furthermore, it's flight control system has been continuously updated allowing it to fully exploit all performance capabilities that the original airframe will allow.
I think it's fair to say that America has the upper hand in electronic systems/avionics. It's also fair to say that America has more money to burn on defense than most other countries. Now if we've got better radar technology, better avionics, plenty of money to keep our air superiority fighters constantly updated with the best avionics, AND plenty of money and resources to keep our pilots up to par with the best in the world,, then it shouldn't be too hard for anyone to see why the F-15 SYSTEM can still maintain air superiority over any threat out there,, including the more agile variants of the Su-27 aircraft family.
Last edited by jgetti; 04 Mar 05, at 15:51.
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