Haven't heard anything about that.Originally Posted by SwingKid
"Did you ever find out what really happened with Speicher's F/A-18 in 1991? I hear rumors that was "friendly fire," and not a MiG-25PD as once claimed."
I've seen pretty compelling arguments that it was a SAM. And compelling arguments that it was indeed a Mig-25, and compelling arguments that it was actually an F-14.
Who knows...
"There's truth to that, but there's also more to the story. The low-altitude penetration role was really wide open to NATO strikers until the MiG-29 introduced a Soviet look-down shoot-down radar. Sidewinder-armed F-111s and Tornados, the tip of the spear of the NATO strike force, would have made far tastier pickings for Fulcrum pilots than winning 1-vs-1s against (then) Sidewinder-armed F-16s. That's what Western stealth and multirole are all about: departing from the now-obsolete low-altitude penetration doctrine. So in a strategic sense, the MiG-29 accomplished something comparable to the F-15."
Actually, the Mig-25 and 31 have look down shoot down, but they were never employed in Europe, as they all belonged to PVO and had a defensive interceptor role.
Really though, it's not as if we'd have sent our jets in on low altitude runs alone. We do escort our fighters, and at the time we still had the EF-111, which could probably turn the Mig-29s radar scope into a dichotomy of white noise.
And really, even with look down shoot down, you still have to be pretty close to get a detection on a low alt. bird.
For the Sovs to have 'stopped' our low level penetrations, they'd have needed to keep their Mainstay AEW&C birds aloft, and well......the F-117 does carry AIM-9s(or rather did, the capability has since been deleted), and that was a mission the Wobbly Goblin once had, killing enemy AWACs(yes, i'm sure, lol).
MiG-31 yes, MiG-25 not really. The most advanced Foxbat radar used some kind of harmonic envelope-detection against "slightly" look-down targets - it wasn't pulse-Doppler and didn't work nearly as well. The MiG-31 and its weapons were optimized to shoot down non-maneuvering subsonic cruise missiles. Being based farther from the front lines, they could not be scrambled nor maneuvered in reaction to enemy heading changes as well as a MiG-29, and the AA-9 was not as appropriate as the AA-10 against piloted aircraft.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that was exactly the plan - NATO doesn't have any fighters even today that could excort B-1s, Tornados and F-111s over the extreme long ranges, high speeds and terrain-hugging altitudes involved. You can't perform aerial refuelling at 50 m AGL. The MiG-29 also had angle-on-jam tracking and Home-On-Jam missiles - EW was one of the biggest reasons the B-1 programme finally amounted to very little during the Cold War.Really though, it's not as if we'd have sent our jets in on low altitude runs alone. We do escort our fighters, and at the time we still had the EF-111, which could probably turn the Mig-29s radar scope into a dichotomy of white noise.
According to the flight manual, against a closing target, detection and tracking range is identical head-down or head-up. The only thing you have to worry about is a perpendicular-flying target.And really, even with look down shoot down, you still have to be pretty close to get a detection on a low alt. bird.
True enough...For the Sovs to have 'stopped' our low level penetrations, they'd have needed to keep their Mainstay AEW&C birds aloft
and well......the F-117 does carry AIM-9s(or rather did, the capability has since been deleted), and that was a mission the Wobbly Goblin once had, killing enemy AWACs(yes, i'm sure, lol).
-SK
Speicher was bagged by a MiG-25. (Don't ask me to prove it, because I won't.) What happened to him after his aircraft was hit is unknown to this day.
But we know what happened to his adversary, though. I read his debrief, and as far as I know, he's still alive.
Last edited by Bluesman; 03 Feb 05, at 21:55.
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell
What in the... "read his debrief?"
What is this place?! Half of you eat classified data for breakfast, the others believe in the tooth fairy?
-SK
Wait just a dam' minnit, there pardner...you implying there's no Tooth Fairy?What in the... "read his debrief?"
What is this place?! Half of you eat classified data for breakfast, the others believe in the tooth fairy?
-SK
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell
I'm on the ATKINS diet now,, I quit eating classified data alltogether last year,,,,, too many carbs.What in the... "read his debrief?"
What is this place?! Half of you eat classified data for breakfast, the others believe in the tooth fairy?
-SK
"What is this place?! Half of you eat classified data for breakfast, the others believe in the tooth fairy?"
Bluesman works at SOCOM, Jgetti works for LockMart.
They're pretty plugged in.
I get my info from the pilots, crewdogs, loadtoads and engineers at www.a-10.org , among 'other' places.
And i can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the Tooth Fairy, or any of his/her agents, and or business affiliates.
Last edited by Bill; 03 Feb 05, at 23:27.
"What is this place?! Half of you eat classified data for breakfast, the others believe in the tooth fairy?"
Bluesman works at SOCOM, Jgetti works for LockMart.
They're pretty plugged in.
I get my info from the pilots, crewdogs, loadtoads and engineers at www.a-10.org , among 'other' places.
And i can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the Tooth Fairy, or any of his/her agents, and or business affiliates.
LockMart!!????? AAAAH! Blasphemy!!!! hehe. Actually I work for McDonnell Douglas (Boeing).
So you're prolly more associated with the JSF than the F/A-22. Hm.
Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.
Boeing builds a lot of components for both the F-22 and the JSF, but Lockmart technically 'builds' both aircraft.
Sorry bout the slip there Jgetti....hehehe.
The 'other' engineer works for LockMart.
I think when Boeing got the contract for JSF project, Lockheed was also competing. Its true that some components in F-22 come from Boeing, but I am really not sure that Lockheed Martin is building JSF.
Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.
LockMart won the JSF competition.
The F-35 is a Lockheed design.
"Speicher was bagged by a MiG-25. (Don't ask me to prove it, because I won't.) What happened to him after his aircraft was hit is unknown to this day. But we know what happened to his adversary, though. I read his debrief, and as far as I know, he's still alive."
I would put money that he is dead. We are in Iraq and have been there for awhile. If there was anything we would have turned it up.
His wife did marry his best friend so that shows they were confident he was dead.
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