Thread: MiG-29 “FALCON HUNTER” Exclusive : THE WINNER

Yep. We bought probably 75% of our titanium from Russia.

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"IIRC, in the 70's, something like 97% of the worlds titanium came from Colorado."

We had to buy almost all of our titanium from the Russians during the Cold war. Most known titanium deposits are in the former Soviet Union.

Where in the world did you hear that, snipe? TIMET (Denver, CO) has been the 800 lb. gorilla in titanium production since the 50's. Obtaining data about Russia’s and Kazakhstan’s industries is difficult and unreliable, but TIMET is certainly the largest supplier of high quality titanium metal products in the world, and TIMET is also the worlds largest integrated titanium manufacturer.

The biggest supplier (by far) of rutile ores in the world is Australia. We're talking 5 times what Ukraine has.

http://www.indexmundi.com/en/commodi...m_table15.html

It was the US Defense Department that put in place the incentives after WW2 that gave birth to the titanium aerospace industry, and the DOD has always required that all titanium for military use must be produced in the US.

The USSR's titanium manufacturing was done by the State owned company, VMSPO. After the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia was granted preferences for developing countries that allowed importation to the US of wrought titanium products with no tariffs. This gave VMSPO about 20% of the US overall market, and about 60% of the wrought market. Russia has been in desperate need of hard currency, and they are not really building any new AC to speak of today, at least not in large numbers.

I also have a very difficult time believing that the USSR would have exported in any quantity such a strategic metal to the US during the cold war. Not that we wouldn't buy it, to keep it out of their hands, but it is simply not logical from their perspective.

In all my years working in aerospace, I never once saw a metallurgical cert for titanium that wasn't produced in the US. That includes civilian AC as well as military.

http://reid.senate.gov/record2.cfm?id=205772

Washington, D.C. – Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) and Sen. John Ensign (R-NV) announced today that workers at a manufacturing plant in Henderson will have a more secure future, now that they have convinced the Bush Administration not to drop an import tariff on titanium sponge. The Titanium Metals Corporation, better known as TIMET, would have faced extreme financial difficulty if the tariff was eliminated, and may have been forced to layoff employees. Working to save Nevada jobs, Reid and Ensign wrote letters to the U.S. Trade Representatives. Reid also held personal meetings with the President’s trade advisors.

“TIMET employs more than 400 people in Southern Nevada, and it creates a product that’s vital to our national security,” said Reid. “We can’t afford to lose either these jobs or our self-sufficiency in this critical market. Now, TIMET employees won’t have to worry about their jobs, and the U.S. will always have an available supply of titanium sponge. This is good for Nevada’s economy and good for America’s safety.”

“If we are to remain competitive in the global market, tariffs such as this one need to be implemented to maintain our homegrown advantage,” said Ensign. “I am pleased that the Bush Administration recognizes that jobs for 400 Nevadans are an advantage for all Americans in the national marketplace.”

Titanium sponge is a raw material that’s used to make titanium – a strong, lightweight metal used for airplanes, and for other military and commercial purposes. TIMET is the only U.S. company that produces titanium sponge. The U.S. also imports titanium sponge from Kazakhstan and Russia, but imposes a 15-percent import tariff.

The Bush Administration was considering waiving that tariff and changing trade rules to make it easier for Kazakhstan to export titanium sponge to the U.S. That would have allowed Kazakhstan, which is not required to meet U.S. wage or environmental laws, to underbid TIMET. That unfair business advantage would have caused financial hardship for TIMET, and could have even forced the Henderson plant to shut down. If TIMET ever closes, the U.S. will be completely dependent on Russia and Kazakhstan for titanium sponge supplies in the future. Timet’s closure would also mean hundreds of layoffs for hardworking Nevada citizens.

-------------------------------------

http://www.evergreenmagazine.com/new...3-answers.html

Material


% Imported


Principal Foreign Sources (1997-2000)


Titanium concentrates


72% China, Russia, Germany, Portugal

Titanium (sponge)


58% Russia, Japan, Kazakhstan



http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/642.php

I found this to be pretty interesting:

Cold War supplier

Companies like Boeing Aircraft have been working with the Russian producer to keep titanium prices down. VSMPO is the world’s largest titanium producer. It has 14,000 employees and has been a Boeing supplier since 1995. The Russian company was established to supply military aircraft and submarines to the Soviet armed forces during the Cold War. The U.S. government has been highly supportive of Russian industry since the fall of communism.

Boeing was recently awarded a contract to lease 100 military aircraft to the U.S. Air Force. Since the planes are leased and not purchased, the procurement process has nullified the requirement for U.S. made titanium. The Bush Administration and Congress have put the U.S. titanium industry in jeopardy. If this action is allowed to stand, the domestic titanium industry’s survival is threatened, leaving us highly dependent on a single Russian company for this strategic material.

BTW, the SR-71, which is almost entirely of titanium construction, was built almost exclusively using Russian titanuim.

"Constructed with imported Russian titanium and painted midnight black"

http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/srnews.htm

"Like anything else, regardless of location, the quality of the metal is based upon the reputation of the manufacturer. Those who seem concerned about Russian Ti should note that the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird spy plane had many of its larger titanium parts made from Russian Ti due to the lack of US manufacturing capacity and capability at the time."

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EE8AB06.php

"Winner of the Bernardo Malfitano award for Coolest Plane Ever is the Lockheed Blackbird. THIS plane I could go on about for HOURS. It was designed and built in 1959, when the titanium industries were just about starting, and techniques for refining and welding titanium were being first developed, but it was built almost entirely of titanium. So much titanium that Lockheed had to import some, from Russia of all places"

http://www.airshowfan.com/blackbirdsindex.html

That's interesting, and I can concede that the SR-71 could have had some Russian sourced titanium, that was a little before my time in the industry (1980-1995). But that doesn't mean that 75% of US titanium was sourced in Russia during the cold war- this is what I am questioning.

The first link you gave showing the imports- 72% of raw materials are imported. True- Titanium concentrates; 72 %; South Africa, Australia, Canada, Ukraine. These are the rutile ores used to make the metal products, not the metal itself. As I already noted, Australia is the main source- SA has grown in the past few years, but in the cold war era, Canada and Australia were our main providers.

The sponge is processed, but is not a finished alloy. It is no surprise that the US is a net importer, we have a large demand and a large aerospace industry.

The 15% tariff is a relatively new thing- it was put in place last November. As I understand it, prior to that, Russia was exempt.

Titanium Producers
Poised for a Boom Period

By PAUL GLADER
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
October 7, 2004; Page C1

(excerpt)
Domestic titanium producers benefit from U.S. government rules requiring military contracts to go to domestic titanium makers. In addition, the industry prevailed in its lobbying effort to have the government reinstate a 15% tariff, effective in November, on wrought titanium products such as tubes, rods and plates from Russia.

The tariff had been suspended for Russia, which had been supplying 60% of wrought titanium products in the U.S., under a system of preferences for certain industries in developing economies. Russia's former state-owned titanium maker, Verkhnaya Salda Metallurgical Production Organization, or VSMPO, had 20% of the U.S. overall market and was larger than all three domestic companies combined.

http://stephenvita.typepad.com/alchemy/2004/week41/

Here is a chart showing the last 15 years of global production compared to domestic production. I will try to find some data from earlier than 1990.

I look forward to seeing your data. This is an interesting subject.

I have contacted some industry sources to try to get some historical data.

I did notice a blurb on the CIA website that mentioned that the Ti for the A-12 was covertly acquired (due to it's scarcity at the time), which leads one to believe that there was no large scale importing taking place.

Starting in the 50's the US had several manufacturers of titanium. TIMET is all that's left today, partly due to Russian imports, and partly due to the downturn in aerospace after the cold war. The tariff was designed to protect them from dumping by Russia, and to maintain a domestic manufacturing capacity because of strategic concerns.

Boeing entered into the agreement with VMSPO in 1995, which explains why I never saw any certs from non-US sources. TIMET sued Boeing successfully in 1997 and got a $65 Million settlement over the deal. But as I understand it, the imported Ti is restricted to commercial AC only. In exchange, Boeing got a partnering deal on the Russian Regional Jet (RRJ).

Also, in the mid to late 80's, the Soviets were dumping aluminum on the world market to get hard currency- this was the cause of the demise of the aluminum industry in the US. Intalco (Ferndale, WA) has the largest smelter in the US with a 72 pot line. They rode out the storm by continuing production despite the fact that they had no sales. They are located just north of me- I toured the plant in the early 90's, and they still had several miles of billet stacked up on each side of the road going into the facility.

It was a gutsy decision- it was too expensive to shut down and restart, so they sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into inventory, on the bet that the downturn wouldn't be permanent. They are still alive today because of that decision. The second largest player in the US is Kaiser, and their biggest smelter is an 18 pot line in St. Louis.

Anyway, I will post up any Ti data I can get when I hear back on my inquiries, but I am confident that there was no large scale imports of Ti from the USSR. That's something I would have known about.

Look forward to your findings.

Thanx man.

Snipe,

Sent you a PM.

Got it, interesting info, thanx for taking the time to find out the real scoop bro.