F-16 FALCON vs. MIG-29 FULCRUM

**MIKEMUN** · 04 Feb 05,, 13:44

Yemen has bought it..

**Dima** · 05 Feb 05,, 08:41

Maximus, haha, the MiG-29K has been offerred to no other country, the only country i've heard is India, and ajaybhutani, um, i doubt that the Su-33 can't fit onto the deck of the Gorshkov while it was still in Russia, or was it the Admiral Kuznetsov, they're both the same class, because Russia has some 24 Su-33's that were stationed on the Admiral Gorshkov, and Troung, not every nation is willing to buy a $2 billion carrier, when was the last time America has sold a carrier to another country, just curious

by the way, MiG-29SMT sales are incredible, Russia already has 150 of their MiG-29's upgraded to SMT standard and UBT(approximately 120,30), then Yemen has orderd 14, Sudan has ordered 4, and Algeria, has a confirmed order of 50, and a possible 30 more, again, Troung, with his lame attempts at saying that these nations have no other choice, neither does Western Europe, or Japan, or Israel, or South Korea and Australia, all those nations are under a tight grip by the USA and you can't deny that, look through my links, in 2-3 of them, they mention this conflict, especially the one where South Korea is tired of America bossing them around forcing them to purchase their aircraft, find it, read it, nations ni South East Asia, America doesn't really have very good strong control over these nations, so don't say that other nations don't have a choice, so choose the MiG-29, its pathetic

also, for further sales, many nations in the middle-east will be opting to upgrade their MiG-29's to SMT's, so there will be further profits in that

**MIKEMUN** · 05 Feb 05,, 12:33

So why all the argument about MIGs not being sold 'cause of Plasma Stealth???

**ajaybhutani** · 05 Feb 05,, 16:03

Originally Posted by Dima

Maximus, haha, the MiG-29K has been offerred to no other country, the only country i've heard is India, and ajaybhutani, um, i doubt that the Su-33 can't fit onto the deck of the Gorshkov while it was still in Russia, or was it the Admiral Kuznetsov, they're both the same class, because Russia has some 24 Su-33's that were stationed on the Admiral Gorshkov, and Troung, not every nation is willing to buy a $2 billion carrier, when was the last time America has sold a carrier to another country, just curious

Well 1. Gorskov comes for the cost or refit.
Cost is 750M for refit. and 750M for 16 mig29.
So its really cheap for an aircraft carrier. Well its possible that the rest would be LCA or sothin else from some other country.

About su33

http://www.indiadefence.com/Gorshkovdeal.htm

And curent russian carrier is Kuznetsov class which weighs 65000 tonnes and so can carry su33. But gorshkov cannot.

link http://www.webcom.com/~amraam/rcar.html

**Dima** · 06 Feb 05,, 00:33

i was talking about the price for American carriers, which might even exceed that, $1.5 billion for the Gorshkov is really cheap for a carrier

ah, yes, the Gorshkov is a Kiev class, not a Kuznetsov class, my bad, sorry, i was really sleepy when i wrote that

well, so, $750 million for 16 aircraft, well lets see, that means that the mean price of the MiG-29K's will be $47 million, Jesus Murphy Gopher, lol, thats expensive, for a MiG-29, but then again, its on par with the MiG-29M and SMT, so, i guess its worth it, but still, $47 million per aircraft

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/feb/05iaf.htm

this might interest you(link above)

why didn't you guys buy a Kuznetsov class carrier, like China, their a lot better, more modern, more space for aircraft? just curiouos

**ajaybhutani** · 06 Feb 05,, 03:01

Originally Posted by Dima

i was talking about the price for American carriers, which might even exceed that, $1.5 billion for the Gorshkov is really cheap for a carrier

ah, yes, the Gorshkov is a Kiev class, not a Kuznetsov class, my bad, sorry, i was really sleepy when i wrote that

well, so, $750 million for 16 aircraft, well lets see, that means that the mean price of the MiG-29K's will be $47 million, Jesus Murphy Gopher, lol, thats expensive, for a MiG-29, but then again, its on par with the MiG-29M and SMT, so, i guess its worth it, but still, $47 million per aircraft

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/feb/05iaf.htm

this might interest you(link above)

why didn't you guys buy a Kuznetsov class carrier, like China, their a lot better, more modern, more space for aircraft? just curiouos

well the russians gave us the carrier for free. That means no cost 1.5B isfor refit and aircrafts.
mig29 costed more to us as we needed to pay for the extra cost of developing the aircraft itself like integrationa nd testing with newer avionics radar etc.
Well chine bought the incomplete carrier. And is completing it by itself. Now we purchased a keiv class that was given to us for free we just paid for the refit.
furthermore we donot need a big carrier. . We plan to get 3 of the size of gorshkov by 2007 we will get gorshkov by 2010 our own AD) air defence ship).

**Dima** · 06 Feb 05,, 03:25

oh, so India plans on purchasing more Kiev class carriers, awesome, Russia is sure to get billions from this, boost its Rand D industry, and then it will be a match for the US avionics industry

yea, they purchased the incomplete carrier from Ukraine, that blows, i wish they bought it from Russia, that would be even more money, so ig uess that your going to put into poeration only MiG-29K fighters on those carriers, right? or will they develop a carrier capable version of the LCA?

**ajaybhutani** · 06 Feb 05,, 07:25

Originally Posted by Dima

oh, so India plans on purchasing more Kiev class carriers, awesome, Russia is sure to get billions from this, boost its Rand D industry, and then it will be a match for the US avionics industry

yea, they purchased the incomplete carrier from Ukraine, that blows, i wish they bought it from Russia, that would be even more money, so ig uess that your going to put into poeration only MiG-29K fighters on those carriers, right? or will they develop a carrier capable version of the LCA?

Gorshkov is the last keiv class left. We are producing our own ADS(air defence ship) at cochin shipyards whcih will be ready by 2010.And its not based on any russian design but all design and technical consultations are from the european countries as russians arent as good as europeans /americans in aicraft carrier technology.

**Dima** · 07 Feb 05,, 01:58

Gorshkov is the last physical remnant of a Kiev class carrier, but that doesn't mean that you can't buy anymore Kiev class carriers because they can still manufacture them, but you said that

"We plan to get 3 of the size of gorshkov by 2007'

maybe you just said it wrong, but can you elaborate?

**SwingKid** · 07 Feb 05,, 02:59

Originally Posted by Dima

ajaybhutani, um, i doubt that the Su-33 can't fit onto the deck of the Gorshkov while it was still in Russia, or was it the Admiral Kuznetsov, they're both the same class,

Gorshkov is a modified Kiev class. It has never operated Su-33.

by the way, MiG-29SMT sales are incredible, Russia already has 150 of their MiG-29's upgraded to SMT standard

Check your sources, there are no such aircraft. There is not even any such thing as an SMT "standard," rather it is whatever Mikoyan wants it to be on any given day. And Russia only has "plans" for 150. They have had those same plans for the past 14 years, because Mikoyan refuses to include the Zhuk radar for the agreed "SMT" price - a price they conveniently fabricated to attract customers by subtracting the cost of the "optional" Zhuk. How much extra is the plasma stealth?

-SK

**ajaybhutani** · 07 Feb 05,, 10:05

Originally Posted by Dima

Gorshkov is the last physical remnant of a Kiev class carrier, but that doesn't mean that you can't buy anymore Kiev class carriers because they can still manufacture them, but you said that

"We plan to get 3 of the size of gorshkov by 2007'

maybe you just said it wrong, but can you elaborate?

i never said the class of but only the size of . and many cariers of different designs can be of similar sizes. though not at all in teh same class. I think u didnt understand my statement right.Again keiv is not at all a good design. And for india who has access toa lot of european as well as the euwopean technology we would prefer to g for european designs of AC's rather that the unsuccessful russian ones. and that too with production at home. Gorshkov will be a different thing as it is coming for free and refit will involve making a lot of changes to suit our specifications.

**Dima** · 08 Feb 05,, 04:13

by saying unsuccessful, what do you mean by that, Russian AC have never been tested in combat, so you can't really say "unsuccessful"

i think a better word would be non-proven or reliable, Kiev class isn't entirely bad, but then again, you have to take into account that Russia never had any dreasm of accumulating a fleet of carriers like the American CVN-68, its more of an anti-submarine unit, than it is a bomber unit(but can still perform those roles) but it's very effective against anti-naval, with its Ka-28 anti-submarine helicopters, and its incredible Granit missile

**ajaybhutani** · 08 Feb 05,, 16:44

I exactly mean unsuccessful.Just check out the history of aircraft carriers in russia . The technologies they used and the way carriers like gorshkov ended up with roblems fires etc etc. ITs called a faliure and not a not proven. For they have already proved that they were worthless when in use.

**Dima** · 09 Feb 05,, 04:39

lol, when did these fires occur? during the 1990's?

because, any nation that was in such an economic depression for as long as Russia, definitely their military training and quality, even its numerical advantage would decrease significantly

and history of aircraft carriers in Russia, when have they been used?

although, American and European aircraft carriers are much more advanced, i'l,l argue that when the Russians first decided to ahve an aircraft carrier force, that they did not intend for it to be used the same way as the American's use theirs

**Bill** · 10 Feb 05,, 19:56

"by saying unsuccessful, what do you mean by that, Russian AC have never been tested in combat, so you can't really say "unsuccessful""

Ummm, they havn't???

LOL...