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Thread: Sukhoi piracy: Russia warns to sue China

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    Senior Contributor kuku's Avatar
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    Sukhoi piracy: Russia warns to sue China

    Sukhoi piracy: Russia warns to sue China

    23 Apr 2008, 0123 hrs IST,PTI

    MOSCOW: Russia has threatened to sue China for copying its Sukhoi Su-27SK fighters and its pirate production
    for export to Pakistan and other Third World countries at much cheaper prices, a leading Russian daily reported
    on Tuesday.

    "Russia has officially notified China that the production of J11 (fighters), a copy of Russian Su-27SK, violates inter-governmental agreements. Moscow has vowed to launch legal procedures for the protection of its intellectual property," Nezavisimaya Gazeta said.

    Under the 1996 agreement, China had the right to assemble 200 Su-27SK fighters under the local brand J11. However, after receiving 95 kits and 180 AL31F engines, Beijing in November 2004 notified Moscow that it no more needs Russian kits for the assembly of Su-27 fighters, saying that combat capabilities of the fighter were very limited and further action would be taken after analysis of production experience by Chinese experts, the paper said.

    "It seems the analysis was successful, as in the beginning of 2007, China unveiled its 'development' — J11B fighter, suspiciously reminding of Su-27," the daily reported.

    Now, Moscow seems to have completely stopped the deliveries of engines. The onboard Zhuk radar is one of the problem modules for China as from the very beginning it was supplied with limited combat capabilities, the report said.

    "What irks Moscow most is that the 1996 agreement did not allow the re-export of J11 to third countries, but now Beijing is busy in the search for the markets of this fighter.

    First in the queue is Pakistan," it said, adding China plans to build 5,000 J11B fighters. Given their cheap price, J11B fighters may wipe out not only Su-27, but also MiG-29 and US F-16 from the Third World markets.
    Sukhoi piracy: Russia threatens to sue China-Europe-World-The Times of India

    Ok then sue, but where will the Russians sue them, this is not the only thing they are pirating, on top of that China might be a market for many future weapon systems.

    Might be better to charge a certain amount of bucks on every airframe sold and be done with it, after all if China can find some customers they deserve to sell them. Even on the part of China it will not be proper for such a developed nation to just sell the Sukhois with out paying what is due to the Russians.

    Well its a funny world, thats for sure.

    From Chinese Defence Today | SinoDefence.com | Leading online source of information on China's military power
    The J-11 (Jianji-11 or Jian-11) is a licensed copy of the Russian Sukhoi Su-27SK air-superiority fighter aircraft built by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC). The initial batches of the J-11 were identical to the single-seat Su-27SK, but the later batches had increased portion of Chinese-made components. SAC is currently developing an “indigenised” upgraded variant known as J-11B, which was based on the J-11/Su-27SK airframe but equipped with Chinese-developed avionics and weapon suite. SAC is also planning to power future productions of the J-11 with the indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine.

    J-11B

    In mid-2002, SAC revealed its intention to build an upgraded multirole version of the J-11 by revealing a mock-up aircraft carrying various types of air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. Russian sources also confirmed that SAC was pursuing a multirole variant of the J-11 with much greater Chinese-made content. This variant was designated J-11B.

    At least three examples (#523, #524, and #525) of the J-11B have been delivered to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) for flight test and evaluation since 2006. The aircraft was based on the Su-27SK/J-11 airframe, but with the following modifications:

    * An indigenous multifunctional pulse-Doppler fire-control radar reportedly capable of tracking 6~8 targets and engaging 4 of them simultaneously;
    * An indigenous digital flight-control system;
    * A Chinese copy of the Russian OEPS-27 electro-optic search and tracking system;
    * A strapdown INS/GPS navigation system;
    * A ‘glass’ cockpit featuring four colour multifunctional displays (MFD) and a wide-angle holographic head-up display (HUD);

    The aircraft could carry the Chinese-made PL-8 IR-homing SRAAM and PL-12 (SD-10) active radar-homing MRAAM for air-to-air combat. While the PLAAF currently has the capability for two-target engagement using the Su-27/-30 and R-77 (AA-12 Adder) combination, successful integration of the PL-12 on the J-11B would likely provide a genuine multi-target engagement capability. The J-11B is also expected to have enhanced air-to-surface attack capabilities with the indigenous precision strike ammunitions such as LT-2 laser-guided bomb, the LS-6 precision-guided glide bomb, the YJ-91 (Kh-31P) anti-radiation missile, and the KD-88 air-to-surface missile.

    During the 6th Zhuhai Air Show held between 31 October and 5 November 2006, China revealed first official details about the indigenously developed WS-10A ‘Tai Hang’ turbofan engine. The engine had already been successfully tested on a modified Su-27K fighter and possibly on some J-11 airframes too. The engine is understood to be similar to the Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine in both technology and performance. However, it is unclear whether the WS-10A has already been fitted on the 'indigenised' variant of the J-11.
    J-11 Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

    Last edited by kuku; 23 Apr 08, at 14:48.
    cheers

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    How am I not suprised, I am off this before the chinese fanboy's jumps in says J-11B is not a copy of the Sukhoi. lol

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    What china buys a couple of copies of a weapons system reverse engeneers it then starts mass producing it?

    Nah that could never happen. After all china has never pirated any product of any other nation in recorded history.

    Russia you knew they'd copy it when you sold them the plane don't whine now.

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    Field mechanik Senior Contributor omon's Avatar
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    lol, what china didn,t copy??

    i know chinise food
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

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    Communists stealing military secrets, what a concept.

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    Old Cold Warrior Military Professional GAU-8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOG3 View Post
    Communists stealing military secrets, what a concept.

    "I'm Shocked!
    I'm shocked to find out communist are stealing military secrets!"

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    We didn't expect them to be able to produce the engines for another ten years. This was actually kind of funny, I remember seeing on the news a Rosoboronexport representative smiling, talking about our great Chinese friends and how they love our planes. Thats was months ago, now last week, same guy had a completely different look on his face, he looked so angry Im surprised he didn't punch the camera man. Meh, I honestly think they should just stop selling off our equipment, we make a 1000 times more money in petro-dollars might as well just use some of those to revive our defense industry for our domestic means.

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    Senior Contributor kuku's Avatar
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    Its not like this sort of news comes out of a great nothing.

    The Chinese will always try to do this include their own improvements or copy what they can and avoid paying the Russians.

    the Russians do not have a way to stop them from doing it, as i said where will they sue them, they can not do it in China or in a nation which is ready to buy something like the J-11B with out bothering about Russia. As soon as they can produce components like the AL-31F they are done with this plane, may be they could even buy some Russian radars learn and improve them and come up with cheaper and equal versions.

    If it is not in the contract signed wrt the SU-27, to produce/modify and to sell them, then i think the only option with Russia is to stop weapon transfer and sale of parts required for keeping the equipment maintained and follow that up with strict diplomatic pressure, chances of that happening are near zero, One huge contract for SU-35s and Russians will transfer all the tech they can.

    Sino-Russia Military Ties

    Plenty of opportunity for trade in this Quartermaster Complex.
    by Andrei Chang
    Hong Kong (UPI) Aug 24, 2007
    China is running into problems in its military-technology dealings with Russia. The country has postponed high-level military talks on defense technology and stopped all new military contracts until Russia delivers an overdue shipment of aircraft, according to industry sources in both countries.

    China has also complained about the quality of Russian weapons. Russian dealers, on the other hand, are upset about blatant Chinese imitations of their products, built from designs supplied in the understanding that the weapons were to be purchased.
    Sino-Russia Military Ties


    News like this if true should not suddenly come out of the blue, i think China must be talking to some nations interested in this plane, and this has the Russian worried. (if the report is true).

    I think the smart move is to tell China about the lack of friends it has in this world, sign a new contract and help China sell the plane with due amount given to Russian firms.
    Or the Russians could just keep on smiling at the SCO meetings and after meeting cocktail parties.

    If Russia really has the Money from Oil, they should go at it alone in projects like the PAK-FA instead of dragging nations like India which will only slow down the project with revised requirements and what not.
    cheers

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    We certainly do have the money from the oil, our defense exports are only worth several billion dollars annually, oil/gas hundreds of billions. But of course you got bureaucrats who always want to cut the cost.

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    To me it seems that they are not planning to import any more Fighter planes, I would expect them to start manufacturing pretty soon all their own military equipment.

    Any nation selling them in the future any advanced equipment, is just plain stupid not to expect some form of reverse engineering happening.

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    Engines are still a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxor View Post
    What china buys a couple of copies of a weapons system reverse engeneers it then starts mass producing it?

    Nah that could never happen. After all china has never pirated any product of any other nation in recorded history.

    Russia you knew they'd copy it when you sold them the plane don't whine now.
    Bwahahahahaha!!!! You beat me to it!! )))

    What IDIOTS! I mean, seriously...hand over plans and specifications to the most notorious counterfeiting and pirating factory on the ENTIRE FU-KING PLANET?!?

    Hey, here's a bright idea: Let's all jump off a cliff and see if we plummet to our deaths...whaddya say? Brilliant idea or what? Yeah, let's do it!

    Fu-king idiots. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Bwahahahahaha!!!! You beat me to it!! )))

    What IDIOTS! I mean, seriously...hand over plans and specifications to the most notorious counterfeiting and pirating factory on the ENTIRE FU-KING PLANET?!?

    Hey, here's a bright idea: Let's all jump off a cliff and see if we plummet to our deaths...whaddya say? Brilliant idea or what? Yeah, let's do it!

    Fu-king idiots. )
    Eh...I remember last year the Chinese government bought a good amount of stocks of one of the US companies that designed software for your military...

    Hey, we didn't know any better, we still have some naivety to shake off from the 90s, I still can't believe we gave Crimea to the Ukranians...bah. But basically this is happening for the same reason why the earth spins, someone is making money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imishin View Post
    Eh...I remember last year the Chinese government bought a good amount of stocks of one of the US companies that designed software for your military...

    Hey, we didn't know any better, we still have some naivety to shake off from the 90s, I still can't believe we gave Crimea to the Ukranians...bah. But basically this is happening for the same reason why the earth spins, someone is making money.
    The last time I checked, the U.S. didn't hand over the F-15, lock, stock and barrel, over to the Chinese and - in effect - say "Have A Good Time".

    Although they did give it - and a score of other technologies to the Japanese, which was nearly the same as handing them over to...anybody with a remotely competent intelligence gathering agency. :(

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    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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