The Future of USAF Tactical Fighter Assets

**Jimmy** · 23 Jan 08,, 11:50

Originally Posted by JA Boomer

I will obviously defer to you on the subject as you are more informed, but this is why I made the point.

The F-22A will carry 2 GBU-31 2000lb DJAM weapons on its mission. These bombs are preprogrammed before flight to hit a certain target, although I believe the target coordinates may be change in-flight by the pilot. The weapon is released from the aircraft and guides itself to its target coordinates using GPS positioning. Achieve an accuracy of a few meters or perhaps a few feet on a good day.

The F-117A will carry 2 GBU-27 2000lb laser-guided bombs on its mission. These bombs will be self designated onto target by the F-117A and will achieve an accuracy of a few inches.

Is this correct?

All I am saying is that you are losing capability in that the F-117A has more flexibility because it is able to self-designate its weapons onto target (if you ignore weather issues) and its weapons are more accurate. These two factors are very important for the Nighthawks most important mission - first-day-of-way surgical strike.

Other than this important mission, the F-22A will probably be the superior tactical bomber on most other profiles. Stuff that needs the accuracy of laser-guidance can be dropped by an F-15E. However, there is still the issue of the F-22A force being primarily an air-to-air force, so how much training and practice will they be able to give to these missions, and therefore how effective will they be?

I was only saying it might be wise to keep a squadron of F-117A aircraft in active service, not suggesting re-opening the line or anything like that. But if the USAF is prepared to accept this degradation in capability, then perhaps the cost saving is worth it.

Aaaah, crap. My reading comprehension was a bit lacking...I completely missed that you mentioned LGBs with the F-117, I was thinking JDAMs. Your description is absolutely right, as far as I understand it.

However, as a proponent of retiring the Nighthawk (a fine plane that did its job well, but is no longer needed enough to justify the cost of operations IMO) I would say that the JDAM is accurate enough for almost any situation. If we're on the first day of a campaign, we dont need to hit any of the likely targets with absolute precision...LGBs are actually overkill, and suffer from several drawbacks that JDAMs dont. These targets dont need to be obliterated in most cases...hell, half the time just scaring the operators into shutting off their equipment is good enough. If we're looking to put a bomb through a window to get an individual, then an LGB would be my first choice...if we're talking about hitting an EW radar, or a comm node of some kind, or a power plant...throw a JDAM at it. Its cheaper, plenty accurate, doesnt require a clear sky, or an aircraft to maintain a certain flight path to maintain the guiding laser. The kind of pinpoint precision strike that I'd use an LGB on is probably not the opening night kind of target.

I'll grant that the F-117 is probably the best platform for doing that strike covertly, but personally I dont think that situation will arise often enough to justify maintaining those aircraft. The airframes are coming to the end of their lifecycles...within a decade they'd probably require an extensive series of upgrades/modifications just to keep them in the air, then more upgrades to keep them relevent in the modern Air Force.

Originally Posted by Feanor

Everest E. Riccioni Col. USAF, Ret. is the author. If you click on the link you can read the whole paper. The rest of it wasn't very interesting (mostly bashing the cost and questioning the necessity which I found sort of ridiculous).

The Air Force is in bad enough shape without people with that kind of rank throwing around ridiculous claims like some of the ones in that article. The Raptor is not easy to acquire visually. Its acceleration and rate of climb would blow away even the Streak Eagle (probably the ceiling, too).

Others have addressed other shortcomings, so I'll just leave it there.

**JA Boomer** · 23 Jan 08,, 21:55

Originally Posted by gunnut

And it's Warthog, not Worthog.

Originally Posted by Jimmy

I'll grant that the F-117 is probably the best platform for doing that strike covertly, but personally I dont think that situation will arise often enough to justify maintaining those aircraft.

Fair enough, a rational conclusion.

Originally Posted by gunnut

Sir, can the F-35 take over the missions performed by the F-117 once they come online? That way the few F-22s can concentrate on clearing the air space.

I think this may be the case. Here is an interesting article concerning the F-35s sensor systems. If they kept the laser designation capability of the Sniper pods, then integrating LGB's onto the F-35 should not be a big deal, although LGB's tend to be a tad longer than satellite-guided weapons of the same warhead size. I wonder if the stealth of the F-35A is great enough to perform the F-117A mission.

Avionics Magazine :: F-35 Integrated Sensor Suite: Lethal Combination

Remember the opening stages of the first Gulf War, if I recall correctly, F-117A's penetrated one of the most sophisticated air defense systems in the world and made their surgical LGB strikes against key targets all by themselves. Can either the F-22A or the F-35A do the same? I really don't know.

**gunnut** · 23 Jan 08,, 21:56

Originally Posted by Feanor

Gunnut that picture was absolutely awesome. You made my day

)

It would be much better if those were cats dressed up in F-15 costume.:P

**gunnut** · 23 Jan 08,, 22:01

Originally Posted by JA Boomer

I think this may be the case. Here is an interesting article concerning the F-35s sensor systems. If they kept the laser designation capability of the Sniper pods, then integrating LGB's onto the F-35 should not be a big deal, although LGB's tend to be a tad longer than satellite-guided weapons of the same warhead size. I wonder if the stealth of the F-35A is great enough to perform the F-117A mission.

Avionics Magazine :: F-35 Integrated Sensor Suite: Lethal Combination

Remember the opening stages of the first Gulf War, if I recall correctly, F-117A's penetrated one of the most sophisticated air defense systems in the world and made their surgical LGB strikes against key targets all by themselves. Can either the F-22A or the F-35A do the same? I really don't know.

I think both of them can. F-22 has 15 to 20 years on the F-117 design and F-35 has 20 to 25 years. They may not look as exotic or as stealthy but they might be much harder to detect due to refined designs.

**JA Boomer** · 23 Jan 08,, 22:04

Originally Posted by gunnut

I think both of them can. F-22 has 15 to 20 years on the F-117 design and F-35 has 20 to 25 years. They may not look as exotic or as stealthy but they might be much harder to detect due to refined designs.

From the rear is my main concern??? F-117A hides its engines much better than the modern jets. Not just exaust, but the radar return from the engine itself. I have no facts...but to the plain eye, this area seems to be a problem. Of course, the target has probably been taken out by the time they're getting a good look at your ass, but they may have friends...

**~~Feanor~~** · 23 Jan 08,, 23:27

I've got one more question. The Pogo article talks about the limits of the F-22s stealth capabilities against ground-based RLS. How realistic is this? Would ground-based RLS of the Voronezh class being built in Russia right now be able to detect Raptors?

**BadKharma** · 23 Jan 08,, 23:58

Originally Posted by gunnut

I think both of them can. F-22 has 15 to 20 years on the F-117 design and F-35 has 20 to 25 years. They may not look as exotic or as stealthy but they might be much harder to detect due to refined designs.

This is true the technological leaps made make those fighters much better. I would also like to add that the F-117 is not really a fighter but primarily a light bomber or strike aircraft. As such you really cannot compare it to the Raptor.

**JA Boomer** · 24 Jan 08,, 01:52

Originally Posted by BadKharma

I would also like to add that the F-117 is not really a fighter but primarily a light bomber or strike aircraft. As such you really cannot compare it to the Raptor.

Did you read the thread? Of course you can compare them, as the F-22 is taking over the mission profile of the F-117A.

**BadKharma** · 24 Jan 08,, 04:49

Yes I did but it is a little confusing because the Raptor is an air superiority fighter, that is equipped for ground attack, electronic warfare, and signals intelligence roles as well. Whereas the F-117 was never meant to be a fighter. How you can compare them is beyond me just because as a secondary feature the F-22 will be taking over the attack role formally assigned to the Nighthawk. Considering the fact that the Raptor is not only a stealth capable aircraft but also is capable of supersonic cruise without afterburner I think they are looking at more bang for their buck.

**JA Boomer** · 24 Jan 08,, 04:53

Originally Posted by BadKharma

Yes I did but it is a little confusing because the Raptor is an air superiority fighter, that is equipped for ground attack, electronic warfare, and signals intelligence roles as well. Whereas the F-117 was never meant to be a fighter. How you can compare them is beyond me just because as a secondary feature the F-22 will be taking over the attack role formally assigned to the Nighthawk. Considering the fact that the Raptor is not only a stealth capable aircraft but also is capable of supersonic cruise without afterburner I think they are looking at more bang for their buck.

I understand, but we have to compare how well the F-22A can perform the Nighthawk's mission to understand if it will be a suitable replacement. It's true that the Nighthawk's entire mission profile is but a secondary mission to the Raptor, but that too goes into the equation. If the F-22A squadrons are not given much time to train and practice the F-117A missions, then they will undoubtadly be an inferior force comapred to the current F-117A's.

**BadKharma** · 24 Jan 08,, 05:08

I see your point considering the Nighthawk's train only for interdiction and Raptor squadrons would need to train for more multi-roles. Brings to mind the old saying jack of all trades master of none.

**Bella** · 27 Jan 08,, 03:59

Feanor, If the F-22 is such a piece of crap like you state, then why is the U.S., "THAT HAS DEVELOPED SO MANY ADVANCED FIGHTERS BEFORE", continue to spend all of that money to build and develope them?
Also, do you believe that it is impossible to build a total stealth plane today against Russia, U.S., and Europe?

Thanks!

**~~Feanor~~** · 27 Jan 08,, 04:13

Originally Posted by Bella

Feanor, If the F-22 is such a piece of crap like you state, then why is the U.S., "THAT HAS DEVELOPED SO MANY ADVANCED FIGHTERS BEFORE", continue to spend all of that money to build and develope them?
Also, do you believe that it is impossible to build a total stealth plane today against Russia, U.S., and Europe?

Thanks!

I didn't say I agree with what I posted. It just made me wonder how relevant the authors points are. I don't know enough about stealth technology to answer you second question. In fact I myself have asked, several posts back, whether ground-based RLS (like the newly built Voronezh-class) are capable of detecting the Raptor. I never got an answer (I'm assuming this means nobody knows :( ).

**BadKharma** · 27 Jan 08,, 04:15

Considering that the full stealth capability of the Raptor is classified I doubt an answer will be forth coming.

**JA Boomer** · 27 Jan 08,, 05:26

Originally Posted by Bella

do you believe that it is impossible to build a total stealth plane today against Russia, U.S., and Europe?

YES

Kind of a ridiculous statement actually, there is NO such thing as a total stealth plane.

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